tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post4843691623719141157..comments2023-09-15T04:27:57.129-04:00Comments on Commentarama: Should Colleges Pay "Student" Athletes?AndrewPricehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comBlogger43125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-43477610275901123982011-11-04T00:11:44.650-04:002011-11-04T00:11:44.650-04:00Great article! It seems it's time college athl...Great article! It seems it's time college athletes should be paid. The NCAA has held down this racket for a long time. If they don't change, more than $2,000 per year, they're going to fall. The debate over at TC Huddle got me thinking about this. I wondered what other people were saying and found your opinion.<br /><br />Thanks for the post! Enjoyed it. Here's the article that led me here if you're curious: http://www.tchuddle.com/2011/07/pay-the-kid-the-earned-dollars-of-college-athletes/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-6925697103126772042011-07-12T14:48:52.517-04:002011-07-12T14:48:52.517-04:00Patti, It is a business, but that is indeed not ho...Patti, It is a business, but that is indeed not how they sell it. And while they technically get an education, it's worthless for all but a handful.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-42129389385744337942011-07-12T12:43:23.998-04:002011-07-12T12:43:23.998-04:00it's all a business, starting with the schools...it's all a business, starting with the schools. students are paying for a valuable (diminishing as it is) piece of paper, not an education. to say that it's otherwise is the height of hypocrisy.<br /><br />wait, the student DO get an education, but for the most part not in the way it's sold.pattihttp://www.notawonk.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-3202732403770249822011-07-11T23:13:22.457-04:002011-07-11T23:13:22.457-04:00T_Rav, I totally agree they've been a bad idea...T_Rav, I totally agree they've been a bad idea. But let's make the distinction.<br /><br />As a matter of public policy, they are a horrible idea. Schools have taken advantage of the availability of these loans to raise their tuition in lock step with the loan increases. This means that people can no longer afford schools without loans, which means that we are putting crushing debts on our smartest young people. It's obscene and the whole scheme should be eliminated.<br /><br />BUT... speaking in terms of individuals, the fact is the loans are there and they can be obtained as a matter of right. So no one can legitimately complain that they can't afford school anymore. They might not be able to afford the most expensive private schools, but they can afford 90% of the schools out there.<br /><br />Of course, that doesn't necessarily make it a good idea, but whether it's a good idea really depends on what you do with the opportunity.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-52045125065191120702011-07-11T23:05:10.254-04:002011-07-11T23:05:10.254-04:00Andrew, I think student loans (for athletics or ot...Andrew, I think student loans (for athletics or otherwise) have generally been a bad idea. Besides encouraging corruption on this scale, they've no doubt been at least partially responsible for driving up tuition costs as a result of expanding the student population to its current bloated size. The whole thing is rotten from top to bottom.T-Ravhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10861218035729479354noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-55226178325006687812011-07-11T22:25:36.676-04:002011-07-11T22:25:36.676-04:00Koshkat, I'm happy to hear he took it seriousl...Koshkat, I'm happy to hear he took it seriously. I do think one of the hardest questions for schools is how do you find the kid who deserves to be there even if they don't have the background to show it?<br /><br />But I have to say that sometimes, schools aren't doing these kids any favors. I started in an engineering school in New York. It was one of the top engineering schools in the country. And they were letting in a few dozen black kids with scores that were half those of the white and Asian kids because they wanted to be able to say they had a diverse student body. But these kids were totally outclassed and almost all of them failed out -- and those that didn't were at the bottom of the class. They would have been better off at a lesser school where they would have gone at a slower pace and had less cut-throat competition.<br /><br />I'm not sure what the right answer is in terms of how to get kids to get the right amount of education, but I do know that the current system is not a good one and there needs to be a better way to get these kids into schools and educated than the whole NCAA scam.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-12181118407264017992011-07-11T22:10:10.225-04:002011-07-11T22:10:10.225-04:00The athlete I was referring to was a poor, black k...The athlete I was referring to was a poor, black kid from Colorado. His family really didn't have the money and he didn't have the grades. Now, should he be able to go to college? My feeling today is no; I don't think it was the right fit for him. But I could respect a young man trying to take advantage of what was given to him to hopefully make his life better. This was at a small state school so the chances of making the pros was very slim. Incredibly, he did play for the dolphins for a few seasons. Not sure what happened to him after that.Koshcatnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-29883325353653378242011-07-11T21:53:29.058-04:002011-07-11T21:53:29.058-04:00Koshkat, I remember that scene with Cartman dresse...Koshkat, I remember that scene with Cartman dressed up like a southern plantation owner.<br /><br />You raise another aspect of this, regarding the pros. By pretending to be not a business, colleges are missing their chance to earn fees from the pros for the services they provide. Not only do they act as a farm team, but they make facilities available to scouts, they set up pro-days, they provide things like video and other information to the teams, etc. If they admitted they were a business, they would be charging the pros for all of that.<br /><br />I agree with you that modern athletic departments really don't fit into the mission of education. In the past, I think they did because these were largely meant as extracurricular activities to give students something to do to improve their health and entertain themselves. But these days, students aren't allowed to participate -- only the semi-pros.<br /><br />On the kids who couldn't have gotten in without a sporting scholarship. I'm not sure I buy the economic argument anymore because student loans are so large by now. You might not be able to afford a private school, but anybody can afford a decent state school. If the issue is academic, then I guess the response is that the way to lean then is to force the schools to teach the athletes. I can honestly go either way, I just think the NCAA needs to stop trying to have it both ways.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-22899779610159168592011-07-11T21:28:03.386-04:002011-07-11T21:28:03.386-04:00South Park had an episode about this. So bad; so ...South Park had an episode about this. So bad; so funny. Cartman asking the AD at CU how he was legally keeping slaves.<br /><br />Although we hear about the bad students, there are several who know they are not going to play in the pros and are using there abilities to get an education. My neighbor in the dorm during under-grad was a very talented football player but about average on intelligence, if that. He told me there would have been no way he could have afforded college without the football scholarship. I am sure there are several others. <br /><br />I don't like the preferential treatment and I don't like the hypocrisy of the NCAA making billions off these kids. "But they're getting a free scholarship!" Yes, but the school has fixed overhead costs. It doesn't cost them anything to take on this athlete.<br /><br />Frankly, the NCAA should stop being the free farm system for the NFL and NBA. Both baseball and hockey have their own farm systems so the others can afford it. Pay them to play. The talented will work their way up rapidly. The others can get day jobs or go to school. Finally, get rid of the athletic scholarship altogether. It is a place of HIGHER LEARNING. Athletics is an extracurricular activity. (Spoke by a true man with no athletic ability)Koshcatnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-57279068750955465902011-07-11T19:56:41.546-04:002011-07-11T19:56:41.546-04:00T-Rav, I'll put something together for Wednesd...T-Rav, I'll put something together for Wednesday or Thursday -- it's a slow news week anyway right now. I think that would be an interesting question. (Tomorrow, the Elves are back, complaining about TSA.)<br /><br /><br />I figured one incident didn't make you conservative, but I took your statement as the key moment that crystallized it for you. I've met a lot of people who have that moment where it all kind of came together for them.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-47168745346171028242011-07-11T19:49:05.754-04:002011-07-11T19:49:05.754-04:00Andrew, that's something I'd be interested...Andrew, that's something I'd be interested in reading. By the way, the school incident didn't "make" me conservative--I was already moving that direction--but it did force me to think about why I objected to it, and to think about the implications for the rest of society. It's a clearer example than many theoretical arguments.T-Ravhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10861218035729479354noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-76791007990413054262011-07-11T18:47:36.930-04:002011-07-11T18:47:36.930-04:00You know, we should ask one of these days what mad...You know, we should ask one of these days what made people see the conservative light? I'll bet we would get some interesting responses.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-2886027703808577002011-07-11T18:46:04.845-04:002011-07-11T18:46:04.845-04:00T_Rav, Very insightful. I can see where that woul...T_Rav, Very insightful. I can see where that would teach you both that (1) distant government is not good government and (2) people are better at sorting out their own problems without the government getting involved since everyone seems to have sorted this out themselves? (Hence, conservatism!)<br /><br />It also raises something that has always bothered me with government, which is that people tend to use government as a weapon. In other words, they ignore the rules they don't like, i.e. the ones that would hinder them, until they run across one they can use to shut the other guy down. And that, to me, is the very essence of what's wrong with interest politics -- that they use government to mess with other people.<br /><br /><br />On our coach, he was a royal bastard. I don't think any of the players liked him and I don't think the players got much out of the year despite the 10-2 record.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-75702628884493824042011-07-11T18:39:39.141-04:002011-07-11T18:39:39.141-04:00Andrew, wow that sounds totally fair (the coaching...Andrew, wow that sounds totally fair (the coaching thing, I mean). <br /><br />It would take a while to explain, but basically, school districts sometimes fudge the law too. For example, each district covers a specific geographic area, and the kids in that area have to either attend that school or pay tuition to attend somewhere else. But in practice, school districts almost always give and take with each other on this--say, my school would let a kid who lived on the opposite side of the road that formed a boundary attend without paying tuition. And neighboring schools did the same with kids in our district.<br /><br />Everyone except the state muckety-mucks knew this went on, and no one complained about it...until our school started winning basketball championships with the aid of students who had been from other districts and now lived on the edges of our district. THEN everybody started splitting hairs about "primary residences" and blah blah blah, and got state officials involved, and these officials, who knew nothing about the local jealousies and so on, decided to impose a fine on our school and...yeah. It sounds more than a bit petty now, but I have a lot of residual hometown loyalty, and it still burns me. Point is, I lost faith in the ability of government officials to manage things properly--even in the state capital 200 miles away, to say nothing of those in far-off DC.T-Ravhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10861218035729479354noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-89107234135384290252011-07-11T18:27:55.051-04:002011-07-11T18:27:55.051-04:00rlaWTX, I think that's really the issue -- the...rlaWTX, I think that's really the issue -- these major sports in college have little to do with education. It is like research, which brings money and fame to the school, but does nothing to benefit the students. Only at least with the research, you can argue that it attracts some of the best professors who then may teach a class or two, and whatever they discover might actually come to benefit everyone through the advancement of science.<br /><br />Sports can't even say that. The best sports can say is that it brings in money. But often, that money never leaves the sports department. So it's like its own little business attached to the school.<br /><br />And as Lawhawk pointed out, there are costs to this, even if the sports department is self-sustaining in that the slots the athletes get are keeping others from attending the school.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-65539491553093215262011-07-11T18:20:50.484-04:002011-07-11T18:20:50.484-04:00T_Rav, Yeah, the NCAA is a joke. In my experience...T_Rav, Yeah, the NCAA is a joke. In my experience, most of these self-regulatory bodies are little more than PR providing cover for the whole industry and they only act when they are absolutely forced to act by overwhelming public scrutiny.<br /><br />That's interesting that you drew the connection between the evils of big government and high school athletic organizations. It's funny what draws people to conservatism. What kind of problems did you run into?<br /><br />As a related aside, one of the things I found troubling as a kid was playing football, we had a coach who wanted to work for a college. So he was all about winning at all costs. He refused to let everyone play -- state rules required only 1 quarter each for the whole season and that was all he was going to give, because he wanted the best kids out there all the time (even at the end of a blow out).<br /><br />As a conservative, you would think I would be fine with the idea of competition. But it struck me that this was wrong, that the point to team athletics was to actually be a team and to impart more values than just "win so the coach can get a better job."<br /><br />By comparison, the coach at our primary rival played everyone, every game. And he never had a losing record in 25 years. Our coach only had the 1 winning year (ours) but that was enough to get him his new job at Colorado State.<br /><br />In any event, that's always stuck with me: what is the real point to school-based athletics? Is it to build character and teach values (and have a good time) or is it to agrandize a coach?AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-10207480677442715802011-07-11T18:11:57.153-04:002011-07-11T18:11:57.153-04:00I used to have this argument with my ex every Marc...I used to have this argument with my ex every March Madness. My main argument then was how much classroom time are these kids getting during the tournament? How is this educational? It's getting more like that at the HS level.<br /><br />I went to a tier 3/district 3 -whatever- college. We had one professional football player to our name [Pierce Holt, 49ers]. (I think we ended up with another over the last 15 yrs). And student-athletes were still treated differently. It wasn't nearly as blatant or bad, but still there. And the attitude of those athletes about their chances of "making it" was wildly out of alignment with reality. <br /><br />I think that college sports is like college research money - screwed up.rlaWTXhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09319344164726195144noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-66973702905025392882011-07-11T18:10:26.425-04:002011-07-11T18:10:26.425-04:00Andrew, that doesn't surprise me in the least....Andrew, that doesn't surprise me in the least. I should add that the NCAA, most of the time, is itself a complete racket. The "judicial" organs which mete out punishment to erring schools are a law unto themselves, with practically no means of appeal, and I suspect that for precisely this reason, their power gets abused a lot. <br /><br />And it's the same way, incidentally, with high school athletic associations. When I was an adolescent, the thing that turned me against big government was not events in DC so much as the muddling and moralizing of these distant state groups.T-Ravhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10861218035729479354noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-89933431759962264082011-07-11T18:06:55.704-04:002011-07-11T18:06:55.704-04:00Lawhawk, That's another aspect of this. These...Lawhawk, That's another aspect of this. These athletes are taking up spaces that could be given to people who really do want an education. So that's definitely something to consider.<br /><br />I'm glad you stopped donating, they definitely deserve it after that.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-66877954281332775852011-07-11T18:05:11.478-04:002011-07-11T18:05:11.478-04:00Ed, Yeah, no to offend Nevada, but I can't say...Ed, Yeah, no to offend Nevada, but I can't say that I think of them as anything other than a basketball school. And on the bright side, even though you were kicked out of the 1992 tournament, at least you didn't have to give back the championship!AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-27041151916466658162011-07-11T17:59:55.539-04:002011-07-11T17:59:55.539-04:00Andrew: I'm kind of neutral about the payment...Andrew: I'm kind of neutral about the payment/nonpayment part, and I know that sports bring money to the universities. But I had that painful personal experience of having my brilliant son (academically and extracurricularly, with a nearly perfect SAT) rejected for admission to Cal the same year Jason Kidd was admitted. Even the legacy advantage he had from both his parents being UC Berkeley alumni wasn't enough to overcome the athletic/affirmative action advantages Kidd brought with him. Kidd stayed and took up space at Cal for a year and a half, then dropped out for a multi-millionaire basketball contract. So Kidd makes millions playing a boy's game. My son made his millions by picking UCLA instead, where he studied instead of playing, got a legitimate degree, then went into business for himself. College was wasted on Jason Kidd. My Alumni donations stopped the day my son was rejected. <br /><br />Cal traded a short-term academic loser who got a few brief basketball victories for a fine student and lifelong productive member of society. Cal's loss, UCLA's gain.LawHawkRFDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17800255923675295515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-61770561558460980152011-07-11T17:56:37.143-04:002011-07-11T17:56:37.143-04:00Andrew, UNLV. We got banned from the 1992 NCAA to...Andrew, UNLV. We got banned from the 1992 NCAA tournament after it was revealed Tark the Shark had mob connections.Edhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18122308626703654554noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-76501869653399244102011-07-11T17:45:16.891-04:002011-07-11T17:45:16.891-04:00Crispy, Hoop Dreams made me very angry. I so want...Crispy, <i>Hoop Dreams</i> made me very angry. I so wanted to punch the adults in those kids' lives. They kept saying things like "white people ain't gonna let you succeed except in basketball." That just made me furious that these people, who were theoretically raising these kids, would keep telling them this.<br /><br />And then the father doing a drug deal in the middle of a day out with his son? WTF?!<br /><br />And then the schools did little to educate them. It was very, very frustrating.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-90085180921926481502011-07-11T17:42:29.908-04:002011-07-11T17:42:29.908-04:00P.S. T-Rav, There have been at least two examples ...P.S. T-Rav, There have been at least two examples I know of where players have exposed the truth only to find the schools attacking them and their characters and the boosters making death threats. One guy was at Auburn in the 1980s and the other was at Ohio State in the early 2000. In both instances, the player admitted to the NCAA that they had been paid, and in both instances the schools attacked them savagely. And in both instances, the players were telling the truth.<br /><br />So what's the message there? Loyalty trumps legality?AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-41763520002714231312011-07-11T17:40:28.121-04:002011-07-11T17:40:28.121-04:00T_Rav, I remember that and I had the same reaction...T_Rav, I remember that and I had the same reaction. These schools are all dirty and they are all playing the same games and then they use the rules as a weapon against each other.<br /><br />I think the Ohio State thing is a perfect example. I despise Ohio State because they always acted holier than thou, but it's always been clear that they are as dirty as the rest. Now they are acting all shocked at having learned the truth -- of which they were already aware. So along come the schools they beat and say "hey, we got cheated." (Same thing with Texas vis-a-vis USC.) But they're doing it too! They have no right to complain.<br /><br />It's ridiculous. It truly is the classic example of no honor among thieves. And yet, this is the example these schools that are charged with educating young people are setting -- that lying, cheating and hypocrisy are all fine. It's ridiculous.<br /><br />What's more, sometimes this stuff goes well beyond just academic cheating. Look at Jeremy Stevens (current Tampa Bay Buccaneer) who got away with rape in Washington because he was a protected athlete. Or the guys like who steal or beat people up at parties and always get away with it because they're considered untouchable.<br /><br />Is this really the lesson we want taught?AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.com