tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post5151798002767487137..comments2023-09-15T04:27:57.129-04:00Comments on Commentarama: Yelling Fire On A City StreetAndrewPricehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comBlogger35125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-67282300222216294172010-10-07T13:49:50.593-04:002010-10-07T13:49:50.593-04:00Thanks DUQ. I understand the Elves are preparing ...Thanks DUQ. I understand the Elves are preparing a counter-argument, but we'll see. Maybe I'll put extra demands on the boiler just to keep them busy! LOL!<br /><br />Actually, look for the counter-argument some time next week.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-72206157337401648302010-10-07T13:25:44.020-04:002010-10-07T13:25:44.020-04:00I'm still of two minds on this, but your argum...I'm still of two minds on this, but your argument is compelling, as always.DUQhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08746724287720239837noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-63289674979972195702010-10-06T17:27:02.588-04:002010-10-06T17:27:02.588-04:00Joel, LOL! Unless I miss my guess, they're al...Joel, LOL! Unless I miss my guess, they're already starting!AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-75683755401161227082010-10-06T17:25:08.938-04:002010-10-06T17:25:08.938-04:00Andrew,
I just wonder when they are going to go &...Andrew,<br /><br />I just wonder when they are going to go "Tea Party" on them. :-)Joel Farnhamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15856960977033430002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-4705033358382691502010-10-06T17:23:36.501-04:002010-10-06T17:23:36.501-04:00Joel, Yeah it looks like this didn't play to w...Joel, Yeah it looks like this didn't play to well around town huh? It will be interesting to see how far this ultimately goes and what they finally do uncover if they ever do an investigation.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-47964252332547244742010-10-06T17:18:39.354-04:002010-10-06T17:18:39.354-04:00Andrew,
Well, some people are asking the right qu...Andrew,<br /><br />Well, some people are asking the right questions in South Fulton.<br /><br />http://www.topix.com/forum/city/south-fulton-tn/TB3PRAFP9PGUVQQD8<br /><br />Evidently the city spends money not in the way the people want it to be spent.Joel Farnhamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15856960977033430002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-27294180354053945712010-10-06T17:12:57.860-04:002010-10-06T17:12:57.860-04:00T_Rav, I just realized I missed part of your comme...T_Rav, I just realized I missed part of your comment -- good point about the toxic fumes, the smoke and the flying debris. That stuff can get everything. So rather than put a fire, which could possibly be put out right away with minimum damage, instead, you end up with debris on your lawn, your car and in your lungs. This whole idea is just a bad one.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-5184406570245781352010-10-06T17:11:40.989-04:002010-10-06T17:11:40.989-04:00Ed, I wouldn't be happy about it either, even ...Ed, I wouldn't be happy about it either, even with the FD sitting around outside with the hoses at the ready. If they could have put out the fire and saved the neighbor's house and instead they spend their time watering the pieced of debris that hit my lawn... I still need to clean that up, it could still damage my place, and there was no need for any of it.<br /><br />Not to mention, what happens when someone else's home catches on fire and they can't get there until this fire burns itself out because they're protecting my house.<br /><br />The whole thing is a real disaster waiting to happen.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-24570132577206990312010-10-06T17:07:11.979-04:002010-10-06T17:07:11.979-04:00I can't say the guy didn't get what he des...I can't say the guy didn't get what he deserves, but I don't think I would be very happy if I was a neighbor. Could you imagine sitting there watching the neighbor's house burning up and hoping that the wind didn't blow it into your house as the firemen sitting there doing nothing. I'd be pretty pissed.Ednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-55707689829838307742010-10-06T15:44:25.343-04:002010-10-06T15:44:25.343-04:00Crispy, In truth, the lines will always be fuzzy b...Crispy, In truth, the lines will always be fuzzy because language is imprecise and one person's "need" is another person's "want." That said, I think the borders are sufficiently clear that even if we just stayed within the fuzzy area, we would be better off. The problem is that we're way over the fuzzy border and well into the socialist zone, with our government doing things it has no business doing at all.<br /><br />And every time Congress meets, it tries to add more responsibilities to the government plate.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-71092610918283988182010-10-06T15:41:44.125-04:002010-10-06T15:41:44.125-04:00Ponderosa, Very nice summation of their charter --...Ponderosa, Very nice summation of their charter -- "Don't let sh*t burn down!" :-)<br /><br />To me, the problem is the model being used here. I don't think a city should be using a model that only provides service to people who pay the fees. As I note above, I think that's inefficient, wasteful and destructive, and there are hundreds of scenarios where this blows up on everyone.<br /><br />In terms of this particular instance, I agree that the guy got what he deserves because he didn't pay the fee.... but the problem was that the city should never have put in place a system that allows opt-outs. They should have just put the $75 in the property tax and then covered everyone.<br /><br />In terms of the private FD, on the one hand, I find it hard to fault them for following the contract. But on the other hand, they should never have accepted a contract on these terms.<br /><br />All in all, there are no winners here. And I think our side is better off not trying to justify this situation -- as many are doing. I see this as the kind of situation that hurts our side with non-doctrinaire conservatives who want smaller, better run government, but don't want to wipe out government.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-56940767444247770222010-10-06T15:32:12.140-04:002010-10-06T15:32:12.140-04:00Oddly enough, I find myself in agreement with rest...Oddly enough, I find myself in agreement with rest of the Commentarama readers, by and large. ;) <br /><br />SMALL gov't does not equal NO gov't. There are things the gov't must do and should do. The question becomes, where do we draw the line. Somewhere along that line you go from libertarian to conservative to socialist, with fuzzy borders, I think.CrispyRicehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07302075204880024936noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-49775901204921669832010-10-06T15:24:07.040-04:002010-10-06T15:24:07.040-04:00The private FD simply failed to fulfill their char...The private FD simply failed to fulfill their charter:<br />Don’t let sh*t burn down.<br /><br />If the company cannot provide the same or better service and make a profit (with free riders, etc.) they should not accept the job. <br /><br />Not change the definition of a FD.<br /><br />The town is to blame as well. They knew a private firm would not provide the same service still they hired them. <br /><br />The town "owned" the risk but allowed it to fall on the shoulders of the citizens instead of including it as part of work requirement.<br /><br />Two entities don't do their jobs but its the individual that's blamed & hurt.<br /> <br />A bunch of nonsense.Ponderosanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-91548084260127114562010-10-06T13:25:14.062-04:002010-10-06T13:25:14.062-04:00T_Rav, Another excellent point! When one side push...T_Rav, Another excellent point! When one side pushes too far, the reaction tends to be equal in size and scope. Hence, the collapse of communism brought a form of near-anarchy. . . the laissez-faire approach in Britain ushered in steep socialism. . . the immorality of Rome ushered in a truly repressive religious period. . . etc.<br /><br />It seems to be part of the human condition that when we react, we overreact, and the further we were to one side of the pendulum, the greater the swing to the other.<br /><br />Like you, I think that putting in place a system where everything is essentially laissez-faire would push more and more people to the left as they saw the system produce things that they considered unjust. This would eventually lead to a repudiation of the laissez-faire system in favor of a socialist system, which would be much worse.<br /><br />The better approach is the measured approach where we determine what kinds of services the government should be providing and we work on (1) limiting the government to those service, and (2) making sure that those services are provided as efficiently, cheaply and correctly as possible.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-51590628401922168062010-10-06T13:14:17.382-04:002010-10-06T13:14:17.382-04:00Pitts, You raise some excellent points. First, ju...Pitts, You raise some excellent points. First, just because something is an inherently governmental service doesn't mean it can't be privatized. In other words, there is no reason that these services always need to be provided by city employees. In fact, in most cases, the city is probably better off hiring a private company to handle the services and then just managing the contract.<br /><br />In fact, I've been involved in a lot of privatization issues in government contracts and it's amazing how many things (like cafeteria services) the government claims need to be run by government employees, and how much better and cheaper they run after they've been privatized.<br /><br />Secondly, Colorado Springs like Pittsburgh tries to blackmail the citizens whenever they want to raise taxes. Right now they are turning off street lights and threatening to fire police and firemen if they don't get a tax hike. Yet they never seem to find a way to reduce salaries, fire some of the thousands of works who do nothing in the city building, lay off some park workers, or privatize things like garbage pick up in parks. Those are the things people want to see cut, but those are the last things the city will talk about. . . instead, they threaten to fire the people the public actually wants.<br /><br />Also, I know the street sweeper machines you're talking about. I've never seen them pick anything up either -- they just push the dirt around.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-49428471467012742972010-10-06T13:04:41.458-04:002010-10-06T13:04:41.458-04:00Joel, I don't doubt your figures, I just haven...Joel, I don't doubt your figures, I just haven't had a chance to think about them yet. But like I said, you raise some excellent questions. Where is all the money going? This is something that people should look into because maybe it is another instance of a corrupt local city government milking taxpayers for outrageous personal gain?<br /><br />It's a good find and deserves investigation!AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-35033687105260555552010-10-06T13:02:26.737-04:002010-10-06T13:02:26.737-04:00Lawhawk, You raise an excellent point about educat...Lawhawk, You raise an excellent point about education. Some services are inherently governmental, some aren't. I would say that ensuring the existence of some form of education is a governmental function -- whether that is by providing it directly by state run schools or by partnering with private schools.<br /><br />But even though this is a function that I would argument government should do, that doesn't mean it should be handled in Washington. In fact, this is one of those functions where local control is better because local control tends to mean accountability. You just can't get accountability when the people in charge of the schools are 2000 miles away and don't have to face the parents or the community.<br /><br />That said, I have no problems with minimum requirements being put in place to make sure that the education provided by all schools is at least competent, but beyond that, it has proved to be a disaster to let the federal government start imposing political dogma and teacher-union supported labor laws, educational requirements, etc.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-13733423949425009162010-10-06T12:52:11.323-04:002010-10-06T12:52:11.323-04:00Andrew, good point. I dare say some of the real li...Andrew, good point. I dare say some of the real libertarian fanatics out there would pass on the chance to live in the full-privatization paradise that is the Third World.<br /><br />Another thing I think could be pointed out is that since, as you said, there is a vague recognition of the need for community, libertarianism also has the danger of causing a mass reaction that could very easily lend itself to some really socialist ideas. There is sometimes a tendency to flip from one extreme to the other like that. The rise of socialism in a Britain that took laissez-faire capitalism to the max is, I think, a good example of this.T_Ravnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-85801387144771856842010-10-06T12:50:08.559-04:002010-10-06T12:50:08.559-04:00Good points on what libertarianism falls short on....Good points on what libertarianism falls short on. This why conservatives support "small government", not "no government".<br /><br />Ironically, when government needs to justify its existence, it is exactly these core essential services (fire, police, emergency medical, etc.) that they always threaten to cut. And in the case of Pittsburgh's budget crisis, in addition to these, it was crossing guards (a threat to children is always a great political issue.) Meanwhile, no one (especially media) ever questions the necessity of the secondary services. Two examples in Pittsburgh: we have this completely useless service called street cleaning, where these completely useless vacuum cleaner truck behemoths roam the streets on designated days of the week to "clean" the streets. But they do nothing of the sort. I've watched them go by my house countless times, and all they do is rearrange the dirt and litter already on the street. For a while, they even had a parking enforcement vehicle riding behind the street cleaner handing out citations to cars that were parked illegally. Who knows, maybe they raised more revenue in citations than what they paid in salary and benefits to the street cleaner driver and the parking enforcement officer? But I doubt it. Case two: we have a forestry division that is responsible for maintaining "public domain" trees in the city. Yet, I can't count the times I've seen forestry workers in their pretty white trucks camped out in our city parks, not doing an awful lot of work. This "service" is just screaming to be privatized.<br /><br />Most of these secondary services could be outsourced, and local governments would save a lot of money.Pittsburgh Enigmahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06452716444698202766noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-72153850462054273652010-10-06T12:38:38.723-04:002010-10-06T12:38:38.723-04:00T_Rav, I agree completely. I usually write in ter...T_Rav, I agree completely. I usually write in terms of economics and logic rather than morality because morality tends to be a lot more fuzzy and those arguments turn people off. But there is a moral side to most arguments and you've hit upon one.<br /><br />People are social creatures and the pure libertarian view doesn't seem to recognize that. And if we do reduce everything to a matter of economic equations, then we do lose something as a society that really is necessary to hold us together and keep the world from becoming rather brutal. In other words, there are some things that we simply want our society to do to maintain society, and we don't want to eliminate those because we think the economics might be better or because we'd like to see the government essentially eliminated.<br /><br />In fact, if you want to see a perfect example of how the world would work if we privatize everything, then look at a lot of Third World countries where the only services you get are those that you pay for. Thus, in places like Africa or South America, the rich hire their own police forces, live behind high walls, and take care of these issues for themselves. Everyone else is left to fend for themselves. That's a horrible way to live.<br /><br />I would be very concerned if we started to separate the world into those who are covered and those who are not, that we would end up with a similar world where private security forces become the norm and where a cold-hearted detachment replaced our sense of community.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-14529966596966926912010-10-06T12:21:51.127-04:002010-10-06T12:21:51.127-04:00Andrew,
Where I got the numbers is in public doma...Andrew,<br /><br />Where I got the numbers is in public domain. Census, property taxes and the "fee" charged. I didn't attempt to look at sales tax which is 7% for anything non-food and 5.5% for food.<br /><br />The argument that the fire trucks belong to the city and not the county bothered me enough to find out how many people are involved paying the fees.<br /><br />That and the fairly recent knowledge of Bell City employees voting themselves 6 figure incomes that depleted the city coffers to the point they were contracting out police functions.Joel Farnhamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15856960977033430002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-86686831358566980342010-10-06T12:20:42.504-04:002010-10-06T12:20:42.504-04:00Andrew: There are indeed some things that governm...Andrew: There are indeed some things that government can do better. Fire protection and police protection are probably the best local examples. The military (specifically provided for in the Constitution) is the best nationwide example. The Progressive-era and subsequent "reforms" have made us dependent on government and at the same time created a tax code which encourages the "free riders." <br /><br />The government service should be in proportion to the need and the superior ability of the government to provide the service. That has gone completely out of whack as more and more people come to think the government is the fountain of all good.<br /><br />In my lifetime, I have seen a perfect example of this government expansion of a legitimate function from a local good to a national evil. That example is education.<br /><br />As a small child in California, I attended excellent public schools which were entirely controlled by local government (even neighborhood government). The taxes were local and the school boards were local.<br /><br />Then came mission creep. If a little government-control is good, bigger government control is better. By the time I hit high school, the local school districts had all been consolidated into a citywide "unified school district."<br /><br />The years went on, and the State Board of Education began to gain financial and curricular control over even the local and regional school districts. Then Jerry Brown appointee Chief Justice Rose Bird and the Supremes decided that all school monies, collected from <i>local</i> property taxes should be sent to Sacramento and redistributed statewide (resulting in solid middle class communities with good schools spending most of their tax money on shooting galleries and gang territory in failed schools in South Central and East Los Angeles, Oakland and elsewhere). <br /><br />The <i>piece de resistance</i> was the US Department of Education collecting taxes nationwide and dumping the money on useless projects, outrageous facilities, support of teachers unions, failed educational programs, and "no moron left behind." The local need to educate all citizens has transmogrified into a national disgrace and a whole generation of illiterate high school graduates.<br /><br />Let private enterprise do its job, and let government services be proportional to the need and ability of the citizens. If it's local--leave it local for God's sake.LawHawkRFDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17800255923675295515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-11211145250362095922010-10-06T12:07:20.893-04:002010-10-06T12:07:20.893-04:00Patti, I agree. It was very stupid not to pay the ...Patti, I agree. It was very stupid not to pay the fire fee. But you know (as you point out), this will ultimately cost everyone more than $75 in legal fees or whatnot.<br /><br />But even more importantly, consider what would have happened if someone had died because this fire spread or if the guy was trapped inside and the fire department stood by -- or if a neighbor died who was visiting. Those are the kinds of problems this situation lends itself too all too easily.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-51414578355164707442010-10-06T12:04:10.818-04:002010-10-06T12:04:10.818-04:00Joel, I agree. I think that there are certain type...Joel, I agree. I think that there are certain types of services that are simply inherently governmental -- police, fire, military. These are the kinds of services where we are better off having them provided "by the people" rather than forcing individuals to make their own arrangements.<br /><br />I also agree about the tax issue. With the amount of taxes paid, the issue of the $75 fee is ridiculous.<br /><br />I got your numbers, but haven't had a chance to consider them yet (finished the article at 3:00 am). I think you may be on to something about the amount of taxes being paid and where they went!AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-11190918089158454832010-10-06T11:55:41.453-04:002010-10-06T11:55:41.453-04:00Andrew, that's another good scenario (okay, no...Andrew, that's another good scenario (okay, not "good," but you get the point) I hadn't thought of. As far as smoke inhalation goes, you could also suppose a situation where toxic elements from the smoke get blown through the entire neighborhood. <br /><br />Not to get off on too much of a tangent, but this is why I distrust libertarianism, at least in the form it's advocated. I worry that if taken to the extreme, it leads to complete social atomism, where one has no relation to others beyond a purely economic level. People are social animals, and benefit themselves and those around them by being concerned and sacrificing for others. To be clear, I'm not advocating some kind of namby-pamby "Social Gospel" like certain persons in the government who shall go nameless; I think this can only be done on a voluntary basis. And I don't think libertarians mean to destroy civil society. But I do think it trends in that direction, regardless of intentions.T_Ravnoreply@blogger.com