tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post5625614298692799263..comments2023-09-15T04:27:57.129-04:00Comments on Commentarama: The Great Gun Shouting Match. . . er, DebateAndrewPricehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comBlogger24125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-2719263333305074452009-08-30T09:46:20.760-04:002009-08-30T09:46:20.760-04:00Gun owners in Canada ? why past Liberal government...Gun owners in Canada ? why past Liberal governments did not establish a national register of those individuals banned from firearms ownership due to criminal conviction or because of mental illness. We are still waiting. What we have in its place is national firearms registration that is ruinously expensive and has resulted in NO provable improvement in public safety.Reynaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04792640749113366013noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-1785968648195016932009-08-27T12:00:16.478-04:002009-08-27T12:00:16.478-04:00P.S. That's what happened in England. Once c...P.S. That's what happened in England. Once criminals knew that no one would be armed, it became open season.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-54477639669382146162009-08-27T11:59:43.401-04:002009-08-27T11:59:43.401-04:00Stan, as you note, the answer is simple. Criminal...Stan, as you note, the answer is simple. Criminals aren't looking for a challenge, they want the easiest target they can find. So if they know someone is likely to be armed, they will move on and hit some other location.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-56643213979790294842009-08-27T11:56:06.075-04:002009-08-27T11:56:06.075-04:00I live just north of Kennesaw GA. The small town f...I live just north of Kennesaw GA. The small town fifteen miles north of Atlanta passed a law that everyone must own a handgun. Everybody knows the story by now, violent crime is non-existent, I wonder why?StanHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07395708786509590321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-18722047357129306452009-08-27T10:24:42.304-04:002009-08-27T10:24:42.304-04:00JG, Let me amend my statement above. I could supp...JG, Let me amend my statement above. I could support licening, though I would prefer a database of people who have lost their right to own a gun. With the data basing being something that gun dealers and police could access.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-16170367191825119422009-08-27T10:15:21.849-04:002009-08-27T10:15:21.849-04:00Stan, Thanks! I think about Luby's whenever t...Stan, Thanks! I think about Luby's whenever the issue of self-defense comes up. I also wonder what would have happened at Columbine if one or more of the teachers had been allowed to be armed.<br /><br />The truth is that the police are a reactionary force. They don't prevent crime, they clean up the mess. That's why people need to be able to defend themselves.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-70237207588372707222009-08-27T09:38:59.253-04:002009-08-27T09:38:59.253-04:00Great read Andrew! I think one of the best example...Great read Andrew! I think one of the best examples of well meaning “gun laws or restriction.” Luby’s restaurant massacre in Texas 1991. Luby’s had a sign that no weapons are allowed in the restaurant a law abiding citizen was meeting her parents for lunch so she took her gun out of her purse and left it in the car. Maniac enters, kills 23 and wounds 20 her parents were killed. What if she had her gun? There are several of these what if stories.<br /><br />The assault weapons ban was another dumb maneuver by our Washington wunderkind. Lawhawk I believe that two of your representatives helped by going through a gun magazine and picked guns randomly that “looked” dangerous, …wow!StanHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07395708786509590321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-53751015493329795752009-08-26T23:45:59.536-04:002009-08-26T23:45:59.536-04:00Great analysis. This really puts it all together....Great analysis. This really puts it all together. Thanks!MegaTrollhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03234420338804013858noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-26107382258199786452009-08-26T20:51:51.203-04:002009-08-26T20:51:51.203-04:00Patti, That's my experience as well. I'v...Patti, That's my experience as well. I've never met anyone at the range who was careless or acted like a jerk with a firearm. There is nothing to fear from these people.<br /><br />So you should be suspicious of anyone peddling fear on these issues (or any other issue in fact).AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-52895332158164732612009-08-26T18:52:03.808-04:002009-08-26T18:52:03.808-04:00those who don't want to own guns, don't ha...those who don't want to own guns, don't have to. those of us who do, and want to, will still protect you if necessary. just make sure and thank us for not caving on this issue.<br /><br />in the state of texas you can carry concealed if you pay out the cash for a class that runs about 10-12 hours (with the shooting proficiency portion). you must register your fingerprints with the state and the fbi. you must take and pass a test (both shooting and written). it is time-consuming and the last time i was in class, it was filled with folks wanting to do the right thing, or by any liberal name, gun-wielding wackos. <br /><br />by the way, as a gal from west texas, and surrounded with unlocked guns from an early age, i can honestly say that i do not know of one accidental shooting concerning those guns. we learned to have a healthy respect of firearms from a very early age.pattihttp://www.notawonk.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-13592730983292435382009-08-26T16:48:50.076-04:002009-08-26T16:48:50.076-04:00Writer X, The problem is that most people have nev...Writer X, The problem is that most people have never held a gun or even seen one up close. So all they have to go on is what they see in Hollywood, which is highly unrealistic, or what they hear in the media, which is highly sensationalistic and biased. The media also promotes anecdotal evidence (which is basically worthless) as if it were somehow absolutely trustworthy and entirely representative of reality.<br /><br />The truth is that the vast, vast, vast majority of people use guns wisely and safely. They use them for sport, for hunting, and for protection, and no on ever gets hurt.<br /><br />They should target gun crime, not guns if they want to solve these problems.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-38167608087409086862009-08-26T16:26:27.981-04:002009-08-26T16:26:27.981-04:00I really didn't understand guns or the even th...I really didn't understand guns or the even the need to have a gun until I moved to Arizona. I remember being quite surprised (maybe alarmed is a better word) when I saw pickup trucks with gun racks and people carrying sidearms. Contrary to what you hear in the newspapers lately, every Tom, Dick, and Harry in AZ does NOT walk around with a sidearm. But Arizona does have its fair share of hunters.<br /><br />Anyway, once I understood more about guns and gun safety, I became less afraid and more appreciative of them. You can't just listen to one bad gun story and extrapolate that to mean that everyone who has a gun is irresponsible. Ban guns? Yeah, I'm sure the criminals will all turn their guns into Feinstein's office. No question.Writer Xhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16505411188186283813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-90451043872935143282009-08-26T15:13:15.294-04:002009-08-26T15:13:15.294-04:00Andrew: Aha! We agree on one issue today. And y...Andrew: Aha! We agree on one issue today. And you're probably right about them going after the manufacturers next. But if previous court cases are any indication, they'll fail there as well.<br /><br />ScottDS: I would just add to what Andrew said that "reasonableness" is not the test when it comes to a fundamental constitutional right. That said, I agree that the automatic weapons ban could remain in effect because it does fit into the "compelling state interest" test, which is the correct test to apply to limiting fundamental constitutional rights.LawHawkRFDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17800255923675295515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-72178533223424572252009-08-26T15:04:11.949-04:002009-08-26T15:04:11.949-04:00Scott, We aim to please!
Legally speaking, the He...Scott, We aim to please!<br /><br />Legally speaking, the <i>Heller</i> decision would seem to say that. But keep in mind, this is what is called "dicta" meaning it is not necessary to the decision itself and can be disregarded by later courts.<br /><br />Do I personally think there should be limits? Yes. There are limits on criminals and the insane. There are also limits on machine guns already -- as noted. I have no problem with those. I also understand that you cannot buy rockets and grenades, and I don't have a real problem with that.<br /><br />But I don't see any valid reason to ban any semi-automatic rifle or pistol. One bullet is one bullet. And the fear of these weapons is largely based on myth and misinformation.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-33821025077517532752009-08-26T14:57:58.278-04:002009-08-26T14:57:58.278-04:00JG & Lawhawk, Beyond my own opinon, lies the l...JG & Lawhawk, Beyond my own opinon, lies the law. In that arena, I think that you will find that for the most part, it will remain business as usual in the near term in terms of regulations being passed.<br /><br />One by one, they will be reviewed by the courts. There will be splits as different circuits apply different standards. Eventually, I think the Supreme Court will come down with the stricter standard (though that's not guaranteed). Then it will get a lot harder for most "safety" regulations to survive the court challenge. In fact, the Supremes appear to have indicated that they will disapprove regulations that interfere with the ability to use a gun in self defense.<br /><br />But some regulations will continue to surive. Only time will tell us which.<br /><br />I suspect that the next attack on guns will come on the manufacturing end, because while you might have a right to own a gun, you don't have a right to make or import a gun.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-6570167074333709582009-08-26T14:52:19.826-04:002009-08-26T14:52:19.826-04:00JG, My position on regulation is probably pretty s...JG, My position on regulation is probably pretty similar to yours. I think experience has shown that gun regulations tend to only affect the law abiding.<br /><br />I think I agree with the ban on fully automatic weapons. And I do support licensing because I would like to see a requirement that anyone who obtains a license take a gun safety course, and because I would favor a background check to prevent criminals and the insane from getting guns.<br /><br />Beyond that, I'm not too convinced much else makes a lot of sense.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-27721065506902752462009-08-26T14:44:42.415-04:002009-08-26T14:44:42.415-04:00What service! Thanks for this article. As usual, I...What service! Thanks for this article. As usual, I learned a lot.<br /><br />Re: “like most rights, the Second Amendment is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose. . ."... it looks like this line of reasoning was rejected...?<br /><br />That goes back to my question from earlier. While driving home from the gun show, my dad (who owns a couple of guns) and I both agreed that there -might- be some weapons ordinary civilians shouldn't own, just as a matter of practicality. <br /> <br />Forgive me. I'm still processing this article so my brain might've missed one or two things. :-) I'll have to come back to it later.ScottDSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-2721308584526105372009-08-26T14:42:46.535-04:002009-08-26T14:42:46.535-04:00JG: If you read carefully what I've said in t...JG: If you read carefully what I've said in the past, you'll find that I'm in total agreement with you. Given my argumentative nature, that's a rarity. LOL Also, please note the query I just posed to Andrew (it was really rhetorical, since I'm pretty sure he and I are on the same track on that issue).LawHawkRFDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17800255923675295515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-9358041427849834822009-08-26T14:37:40.988-04:002009-08-26T14:37:40.988-04:00Andrew: I guess we'll be facing years of new ...Andrew: I guess we'll be facing years of new statutes, litigation, and constitutional arguments. That's to be expected. <i>Heller</i> finally established the individual right, and now we have to deal with what that means. I think too many people have looked at <i>Heller</i> and decided that the fringe has been declared to be correct--gun ownership is unrestricted. You and I know better. The future attacks on gun ownership will come in the form of restrictions on ownership and use.<br /><br />Let's see if my best guess is right, and if you agree with my argument. The states which hate guns will try to establish "reasonable restrictions." Those will be the first statutes to fall, since "resonableness" is not the test. When a fundamental constitutional right is to be restricted, it must be based on "compelling state interest." Ya think?LawHawkRFDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17800255923675295515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-84975695273347184022009-08-26T14:29:41.654-04:002009-08-26T14:29:41.654-04:00LawHawk: I respectfully disagree. Those aren't...LawHawk: I respectfully disagree. Those aren't the "ugly guns." Those are the cool ones! ;)<br /><br />I understand that the 2nd amendment is not an "absolute right," as you state it, as indeed none of them are. However, I don't think unlicensed open carry is the same as the proverbial shouting "fire" in a crowded theater. And, considering the amount of accidents and death LICENSED drivers cause each year, I'm not convinced a licensing process is an effective way of ensuring safe gun ownership. <br /><br />Our gym posted a "no gun" sign a couple of weeks ago, which led to a lot of discussion about "responsible" gun owners (whatever that means. A cop friend of mine got in on it, saying that, while yes, those signs do nothing to practically protect patrons or employees (i.e. 7/11) it makes business owners feel better about the mythical concealed carry person spraying innocents with bullets trying to deter the actual criminal. To which I responded, that I can understand a person unfamiliar with concealed carry culture to have that view, any person who regularly carries is someone who practices the highest gun safety standards. One time I was with a group (of fellow right-wingers) and some cop was there speaking saying the best form of self-defense is to run (which I'm sure was a great comfort to the paraplegic in attendance, but whatev.) and the issue of self-defense came up, and one of the old women in there was arguing against being able to carry in places like malls or colleges, because "I have a concealed carry license and I can't shoot worth a flip" and I said, "Do you carry regularly?" and she said, "No, of course not! I can't hit the broadside of a barn!" Exactly. People who do carry regularly are at the range staying in practice and improving their shooting, follow signage restrictions, and don't go around flashing their guns - even in my crazy right-wing circles. It's a serious responsibility in the view of those who are law-abiding citizens.JGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03116405895683599572noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-90663340094016293002009-08-26T14:19:27.181-04:002009-08-26T14:19:27.181-04:00CrispyRice, as I say in the article, "assault...CrispyRice, as I say in the article, "assault weapons" are used in less than 2% of gun crimes.<br /><br /><br />Lawhawk, That's one of the problems with this debate. If you can't trust the motives of the other side, then it becomes difficult to accept even reasonable proposals. I will be curious to see how <i>Heller</i> eventually effects the gun-control landscape.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-49668055044938771602009-08-26T14:13:43.427-04:002009-08-26T14:13:43.427-04:00CrispyRice: Not only are those assault weapons ra...CrispyRice: Not only are those assault weapons rarely used, but our geniuses in Congress don't even know how to describe them properly. Gun advocates have summed it up pretty well. Anti-gun people don't like "ugly guns."LawHawkRFDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17800255923675295515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-79519342838290538242009-08-26T14:12:30.326-04:002009-08-26T14:12:30.326-04:00Andrew: Excellent and detailed analysis. Increme...Andrew: Excellent and detailed analysis. Incremental gun confiscation is one of my favorite bugaboos. And those who do not even go that far are just as dangerous. They're the ones who say "we don't want to ban guns, we just want to make them safe." Now that means that once they have performed all their voodoo, my gun (which I own for home defense) could be rendered entirely useless. The violent felon is breaking down my door. But no problem. I will rush to my separate gun-case and unlock the cabinet and get my gun. Then I will rush to the other cabinet, where I am required to keep my ammunition separately. I will then load the gun, and hope that the battery that allows my "smart-gun" to recognize me as the proper owner of the gun has not gone dead. Oh, by the way--the felon murdered me right around step two.LawHawkRFDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17800255923675295515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-36001520990801578202009-08-26T14:09:23.494-04:002009-08-26T14:09:23.494-04:00Great article. I didn't know that assault wea...Great article. I didn't know that assault weapons were used so little in crime. To listen to the reporting, you never hear of crimes with anything but cop-killer bullets and assault weapons.CrispyRicehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07302075204880024936noreply@blogger.com