tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post5798974873245778537..comments2023-09-15T04:27:57.129-04:00Comments on Commentarama: Osama Bin Laden Round Up PostAndrewPricehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comBlogger55125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-10426294064500719412011-05-05T13:02:39.353-04:002011-05-05T13:02:39.353-04:00T_Rav, Time has run some surprising pieces in the ...T_Rav, Time has run some surprising pieces in the past couple years, but not enough. For every fair article, they run about 1000 totally leftwing biased articles. Still, it's interesting when they do run a fair article.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-74683196324409471132011-05-04T23:37:34.660-04:002011-05-04T23:37:34.660-04:00Andrew, I was honestly surprised that Time went ah...Andrew, I was honestly surprised that Time went ahead and ran the story, given the results they got. I think over time, a lot of people (and this can happen on the Right, too) become so wedded to an ideology that to open it to criticism would mean abandoning their entire way of looking at the world, and that's not something many people can do. But that doesn't excuse the double standards they constantly engage in. You just know if this story had been that the students felt let down by Bush, the editors would have considered putting this on the front page.T-Ravhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10861218035729479354noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-25246174797324086522011-05-04T23:32:18.849-04:002011-05-04T23:32:18.849-04:00My pleasure, Bev. I don't know if their experi...My pleasure, Bev. I don't know if their experiences with the President that day are responsible, but those kids seem well on their way to becoming some stand-up young adults. <br /><br />As for those seven minutes, what I want to know is, if it's fair for liberals to bash Bush for that, is it fair for us to bash Obama for the 16 hours he took to mull over the decision to hit bin Laden's compound?T-Ravhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10861218035729479354noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-47583343302525404682011-05-04T22:39:41.649-04:002011-05-04T22:39:41.649-04:00Bev, I think the criticism of Bush was just that, ...Bev, I think the criticism of Bush was just that, it was anger aimed at Bush for "stealing the election" and no matter what he did they were going to criticize him. If he'd left, they would have accused him of needlessly scaring the kids. It's gotcha criticism and it's become far too common in our political discourse. Bush made the right call at the time given the type of emergency in question.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-11504848664131270992011-05-04T22:23:31.602-04:002011-05-04T22:23:31.602-04:00T-Rav and Andrew - Thanks for posting that link to...T-Rav and Andrew - Thanks for posting that link to the Time article. I wouldn't have read it since I banned Time from my life. Out of the mouths of the innocent.<br />Those of us who lived through 9/11 in living color do have a different perspective. I have never understood the criticism that Bush has taken for those 7 minutes with those kids.BevfromNYChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14953050916932306270noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-38692836122911032972011-05-04T22:05:36.187-04:002011-05-04T22:05:36.187-04:00T_Rav, I'm sure there's a propaganda aspec...T_Rav, I'm sure there's a propaganda aspect to much of this. But I really think it goes deeper. I really think this is a matter of protecting their entire belief system from the constant assault of reality disproving everything they believe.<br /><br /><br />Here's your link: <a href="http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2069327,00.html" rel="nofollow">LINK</a><br /><br />... clearly racism. ;-)AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-15511348928618403692011-05-04T21:48:21.472-04:002011-05-04T21:48:21.472-04:00Andrew, as Goebbels liked to say, if you're go...Andrew, as Goebbels liked to say, if you're going to lie anyway, lie big. Not that we should be following his lead on anything, obviously.<br /><br />Regarding the "blame Bush" line, though, here's a nice little tonic on that from Time:<br /><br />http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2069327,00.html<br /><br />I have a feeling these kids will begin to be referred to by the media as racists or ignorant pawns in 3...2...1...T-Ravhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10861218035729479354noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-39828446756986583002011-05-04T19:40:23.304-04:002011-05-04T19:40:23.304-04:00T_Rav, It's all part of trying to sustain thei...T_Rav, It's all part of trying to sustain their belief system in the face of evidence that they've been so incredibly wrong time and again. Everything they believe has come crashing down in failure. . . again. So they either need to admit they are wrong, they need to explain away the failure, or they need to pretend they didn't fail. The first is too dramatic because it calls into question their entire belief system. The second was the weapon of choice for so long, but has now gotten too hard because even they realize they can't keep blaming Bush and unexpected events. That leaves the third -- deny reality. And when people deny reality, they tend to do it big time, not just small time. In other words, if you're going to pretend Obama isn't a failure, why not go all out and pretend he's the greatest success ever.<br /><br />It's sad, but it's really a pretty standard human defense mechanism.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-26030795218794599312011-05-04T19:13:46.377-04:002011-05-04T19:13:46.377-04:00Andrew, I notice that MSNBC's Larry O'Donn...Andrew, I notice that MSNBC's Larry O'Donnell has been singing Obama's praises to an incredible degree the past couple days, to the point of telling Bush-Cheney supporters to take notes because "now we see how it's really done" or something. Sorry, O'Donnell. Points for chutzpah, but there can be only one Miss Precious Perfect, and you, SIR, are no Miss Precious Perfect.T-Ravhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10861218035729479354noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-69827264363477725062011-05-04T18:40:02.502-04:002011-05-04T18:40:02.502-04:00Kosh and T_Rav, I think those are actually good di...Kosh and T_Rav, I think those are actually good dividers. There is a huge difference between physical and psychological discomfort to break the will and permanent damage done for no particular purpose except to punish. Moreover, there is a huge difference between seeking to obtain the information to save lives or shorten a war and just doing it for fun. Unfortunately, too many people don't get that point.<br /><br />I've said before that this is an area that requires careful thought. The left hates any form of discomfort and calls it torture -- which is ridiculous. But too many on the right revel in the idea of just inflicting pain until the guy tells you what you want to know, and they don't grasp the idea that pure torture is counter productive.<br /><br />This is one of those rare areas where we should be relying on expert advice to determine how best to tread to get the best results.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-24046773265118269052011-05-04T18:39:47.616-04:002011-05-04T18:39:47.616-04:00Absolutely agree with you T-Rav. Although it is t...Absolutely agree with you T-Rav. Although it is torture, I don't think anything we subject our own troops to can be considered morally wrong in the right situation. It should be used carefully, expertly, and rarely.<br /><br />Does this mean we can start giving the terrorists coffee colon cleanses? How is wearing women's clothing torture? Unless it was too small? Have I been subjecting my wife to terrible pain and humiliation?!? From now on I will insist she walk around the house braless.Koshnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-17686047011095557182011-05-04T18:32:08.151-04:002011-05-04T18:32:08.151-04:00T_Rav, LOL! Yes, you show Blogger who's boss!...T_Rav, LOL! Yes, you show Blogger who's boss! I'm having a similar struggle at the film site, trying to get the feed to work so that search engines can pick it up. All the code is fine, but for whatever reason, Blogger is resisting me. But I will not surrender!<br /><br /><br />On your point, it sounds like one would expect -- the military has been working on this for years. They made much more progress than we realized. And to make that progress required them to use all the interrogation weapons in their arsenal. . . . apparently asking nicely just wasn't enough.<br /><br />I don't expect the MSM to fess up to any of this. They will go with the idea that once Obama engaged himself, the right prisoners just suddenly came forth with the right information and then Obama made his "brave" decision -- now we should think of him as a fierce warrior.<br /><br />But this won't work because he still doesn't know how to project himself as a leader. Instead, he looks like a hanger-on who is trying to claim credit for other people's deeds.<br /><br />Moreover, his bravery is false because he really only had one choice. For example, could he really have passed up the chance to get Osama or would that destroy him if it ever leaked out? And blowing Osama up doesn't get Obama the proof he needs to show what he did. Hence, he had only one choice.<br /><br />I think people get all of that, which is why he's not getting a bounce out of any of this. People are happy that OBL is dead, but this hasn't change their view of anything really.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-7677281679762430492011-05-04T18:30:28.443-04:002011-05-04T18:30:28.443-04:00Kosh, in all honesty, there have been a number of ...Kosh, in all honesty, there have been a number of times when I (and others) have been listening to Obama talk and suddenly felt the need to do myself in. (For Exhibit A, go back and read the comments here for the SOTU speech.) <br /><br />If I remember the Telegraph article correctly, the "interrogation" of al-Qahtani included being forced to wear a woman's bra, being led around on a leash and act like a giant dog, and being subjected to cold temperatures extreme enough that he was hospitalized twice. <br /><br />I have a couple of thoughts on this: <br /><br />1. You can't really call something flat-out torture if there are people in West Hollywood who pay to be subjected to it. <br /><br />2. There's a difference, as you point out, between using this stuff for confessions and using it for information. Even the latter is qualified: Karl Rove was on FNC this morning and pointed out that when you're waterboarding someone, you don't take what they say at face value. (This leads me to believe I've been doing it wrong.) The whole point is to break their spirit and make them willing to talk freely rather than be waterboarded AGAIN--that is, not during. I suspect something similar was the case with the methods here.<br /><br />As for Davis, there's been a lot of conjecture to that effect and I haven't seen anything definite either way, but it certainly does put that story in a different light, doesn't it?T-Ravhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10861218035729479354noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-72917321624465862372011-05-04T18:22:04.799-04:002011-05-04T18:22:04.799-04:00Bev, I don't like the lack of a tie either. H...Bev, I don't like the lack of a tie either. He's the President. Part of his job is to look the part. He fails at that too. Grr.<br /><br />Yep, calling out the cop was truly a moment that told us that everything he pretended to be during the election was a lie.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-47093359249344561242011-05-04T18:18:41.169-04:002011-05-04T18:18:41.169-04:00No, T-Rav, you have it all wrong. Obama felt Osam...No, T-Rav, you have it all wrong. Obama felt Osamas presences and single handedly flew to pakistan under the cover of night, slipped into his compound, and tried to reason with him. After the 57th aaaas and 35th umms, OBL killed himself with a single bullet to the head.<br /><br />Enhanced Interrogation- LOL<br /><br />There is torture (waterboarding and keeping awake) and then there is torture (like smashing testicles with a hammer and pouring boiling oil down someones throat). The first kind is ethically ok if you are only trying to get information but not trying to get a confession. The second is only done for sadistic purposes.<br /><br />T-Rav, that was my understanding as well. Also, the arrest of CIA contractor Raymond Davis may also be related as he may have been collecting intel.Koshnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-80604360457905716712011-05-04T17:54:59.954-04:002011-05-04T17:54:59.954-04:00(continued)
Also around about 2004, our troops in...(continued)<br /><br />Also around about 2004, our troops in Iraq captured a certain Hassan Ghul, who was fairly high up in the Al-Qaeda command structure. Ghul was apparently taken to a CIA facility in Pakistan and, again under enhanced interrogation, gave up the real name of the courier (because of the circumstances in which it went down, expect the MSM to get VERY quiet about this part of the timeline). With that, our intelligence agencies started tracking down the courier until sometime last year, when he slipped and made a phone call that could be traced; we located him, followed him back to the compound in Abbottabad, and spent the next several months doing surveillance. It was determined that bin Laden was probably hiding there; they went to Obama with the info, he gave the green light, and the rest we know. <br /><br />Or, to give the media's shorthand version, Obama took office, then reminded everybody that we still hadn't caught this bin Laden guy everyone had forgotten about, they got back on his trail, and voila!<br /><br />(Blogging machine, you will bow to my will.)T-Ravhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10861218035729479354noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-58970032296093693742011-05-04T17:54:40.144-04:002011-05-04T17:54:40.144-04:00Okay, even though it's pretty late, I'll t...Okay, even though it's pretty late, I'll try and repeat what I said this morning before blogger screwed me over. There was an excellent analysis about the interrogation thing here: <br /><br />http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/al-qaeda/8489866/WikiLeaks-Bin-Ladens-courier-trained-911-hijack-team.html<br /><br />I was doing my own investigating last night and blowing off finals papers in the process (that's just how much I care), and here's what I came up with on the steps that led up to Sunday.<br /><br />In 2003 or thereabouts, KSM, after being put through enhanced interrogation, gave up the code name of bin Laden's courier (al-Kuwaiti or something), which may or may not have been confirmed by the "20th hijacker," Muhammed al-Qahtani, a year later under similar methods (which I wouldn't consider torture, personally, but they were legally questionable). <br /><br />(continued)T-Ravhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10861218035729479354noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-88139691335374184292011-05-04T17:11:04.060-04:002011-05-04T17:11:04.060-04:00Kosh: Sorry, I just caught your question on the D...Kosh: Sorry, I just caught your question on the DOMA post. I did reply, and I hope that clears up the confusion.LawHawkRFDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17800255923675295515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-83566662513618629052011-05-04T16:21:27.516-04:002011-05-04T16:21:27.516-04:00His defining moment for me was when he first calle...His defining moment for me was when he first called out a private citizen of the United States of America to ridicule while sitting in the WH. It defined him to me as Orwellian.<br /><br />And it really really bugs me he doesn't wear a tie! It's the least he can do if he's gonna order the assassination of someone. BTW neither does Ahmahdinajaqet...BevfromNYChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14953050916932306270noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-61457696242544974372011-05-04T15:59:48.509-04:002011-05-04T15:59:48.509-04:00Kosh, That's a great point, that a defining mo...Kosh, That's a great point, that a defining moment is a moment that defines the principles upon which we will finally choose to live our lives, and that with Presidents, these are most often moments when they suddenly get a clear picture of their mission as President.<br /><br />I honestly don't know that Obama's had a true defining moment yet because he doesn't seem to stand for anything. He's had lots of little moments that he wants people to believe are his defining moments, but they've all been nothing more than minor blips that he had little to do with except watch as someone else (e.g. Pelosi) does all the work. I just don't know that he's had THAT moment yet. . . he still seems like an empty suit.<br /><br />If anything, I would say his defining moment was Honduras, when he realized that foreign policy is very hard and people aren't going to jump just because he says jump. I would say that was the moment he really stopped caring about the job and decided he would rather just enjoy the perks of the jobs.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-36295636197293537292011-05-04T15:38:52.074-04:002011-05-04T15:38:52.074-04:00Kosh: At least we didn't have to put up with A...Kosh: At least we didn't have to put up with Al Gore telling us that this was a "risky helicopter scheme."LawHawkRFDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17800255923675295515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-4946981059469017412011-05-04T15:36:15.550-04:002011-05-04T15:36:15.550-04:00A defining moment is just that, a single event tha...A defining moment is just that, a single event that characterizes the person. It can even be a changing moment. For Bush, I think that moment was when he was at ground zero with the blowhorn. Prior to that, he really wasn't a hawk and right after 9/11 seemed a little befuddled on what to do. During that impromptu speech he changed into someone ready to kick-ass.<br /><br />You can't really have multiple defining moments, although different people can each have an individual defining moment for a specific person.<br /><br />I think we should each put in our defining moment, the aha I know this person really is, of President Obama.<br /><br />For me, it was during the primaries when asked about a foreign policy question by a reporter he retorted with "Why can't I just eat my waffle?"<br /><br />I don't know, maybe because you are running to be PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES! Complete, unserious, arrogant a$$hole.Koshnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-18893118950893599162011-05-04T15:33:55.977-04:002011-05-04T15:33:55.977-04:00Kosh - "OBL is found and killed within one w...Kosh - "OBL is found and killed within one week of Obama releasing his birth certificate. What did OBL know?"<br /><br />Well, you know Obama Sr. did have many wives...naaah.BevfromNYChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14953050916932306270noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-20214056423981900422011-05-04T15:31:12.575-04:002011-05-04T15:31:12.575-04:00rlaWTX, It is a pretty good little community we ha...rlaWTX, It is a pretty good little community we have here! :-)<br /><br />I love the "what did OBL know" comments! LOL!AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-38605247145852296142011-05-04T15:30:25.927-04:002011-05-04T15:30:25.927-04:00Bev, You truly are cynical aren't you? I have...Bev, You truly are cynical aren't you? I have no doubt that Obama is only acting for the good of the country and not his re-election . . . . man I could barely type that without my fingers going numb.<br /><br />Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if they suddenly feel the pressure and decide to release the photos right before the election.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.com