tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post5916303156966236551..comments2023-09-15T04:27:57.129-04:00Comments on Commentarama: Final Blow To Secularism In Turkey?AndrewPricehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comBlogger40125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-68649997069143731772012-06-11T19:11:59.792-04:002012-06-11T19:11:59.792-04:00Koshcat: And since she's my ex-wife--well, ne...Koshcat: And since she's my ex-wife--well, never mind.LawHawkRFDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17800255923675295515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-32001758055203378362012-06-11T18:25:33.161-04:002012-06-11T18:25:33.161-04:00I don't think anyone gets too excited about se...I don't think anyone gets too excited about seeing 50 y/o boobies, unless they are on your beautiful wife.Koshcatnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-16817349994361178852012-06-11T16:08:31.929-04:002012-06-11T16:08:31.929-04:00tryanmax: I'm sure Satan himself can find thi...tryanmax: I'm sure Satan himself can find things in the Constitution that he likes when it suits his purpose. <br /><br />Great maxim. Corollary: If the changed sample size doesn't work, change the samplers.LawHawkRFDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17800255923675295515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-15711152399471197322012-06-11T16:02:04.543-04:002012-06-11T16:02:04.543-04:00If I can tangent a bit on the Ground Zero Communit...If I can tangent a bit on the Ground Zero Community Center: I found it very ironic at the time that the usual liberal proponents of "democracy" were very much against it when there was popular objection to the GZM. It was almost as if, for a bright, shiny moment, the Constitution mattered to these people. But I won't go <i>that</i> far. <br /><br />Liberal maxim for the day: if democracy doesn't work to your liking, change the sample size.tryanmaxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09881154741574720094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-5556383964505583252012-06-11T15:43:44.067-04:002012-06-11T15:43:44.067-04:00Koshcat: Not even militant Muslims deserve that k...Koshcat: Not even militant Muslims deserve that kind of punishment. <br /><br />I had the same thought you had, but I was hoping that someone else would bring it up first so I could avoid being called a sexist/lookist/ageist. When it happened, did she say "blimey?"LawHawkRFDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17800255923675295515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-29865373151955219532012-06-11T15:37:14.912-04:002012-06-11T15:37:14.912-04:00rlaWTX: I agree on all points, although I would h...rlaWTX: I agree on all points, although I would have to say that it would be constitutionally impermissible for New York to forbid the construction of the Ground Zero mosque solely on religious grounds. But there are plenty of other legitimate grounds to do so. And now Bev has informed us that the construction becomes less likely each day because of simple matters unrelated to religion itself.LawHawkRFDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17800255923675295515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-55514589122122721502012-06-11T15:33:49.258-04:002012-06-11T15:33:49.258-04:00Bev: So was Madonna defying Islamic prudery, or j...Bev: So was Madonna defying Islamic prudery, or just being her usual obscene self?LawHawkRFDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17800255923675295515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-20172303552376120332012-06-11T15:28:29.014-04:002012-06-11T15:28:29.014-04:00Um Bev, I saw the video. The wardrobe work fine; ...Um Bev, I saw the video. The wardrobe work fine; she just whipped it out.<br /><br />The Turks deserve this kind of punishment.Koshcatnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-42237917926654431892012-06-11T15:26:53.261-04:002012-06-11T15:26:53.261-04:00Bev: Thanks for the update, and the good news. I...Bev: Thanks for the update, and the good news. I did mention the Greek Orthodox Church in a post almost a year ago now. I rarely have good things to say about unions, but the unions in NYC made it pretty clear they had no intention of participating in the building of the Great Insult. Good for them. The union stranglehold on NYC construction is usually a bad thing, but this time it worked for good. <br /><br />You caught my main point, which was that a great historical site in Turkey will now be cut off for all non-Muslims. Even from just a purely architectural viewpoint, the building is a wonder of the world which ought to be open to everyone.LawHawkRFDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17800255923675295515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-32545885527172108362012-06-11T15:18:32.423-04:002012-06-11T15:18:32.423-04:00[1] There is most def a double standard - even in ...[1] There is most def a double standard - even in the "western" world. Anything is allowed of Islamists in their nominally adopted nations, while anything that acts to preserve said nation's culture against Islamist attack is racist. While the US GOV'T shouldn't necessarily stop a private organization from building on private land, the citizens certainly are allowed to have an express alternate opinions - and they should be able to do so without being shut down and labeled as "haters" or "racists".<br /><br />[2] I think that Turkey's secularism was too intense to be maintained without force. And since Islamism is on the rise, that force would have to be greater and greater. And since "democracy", without the republican limitations that protects minorities, is also on the rise, it is no surprise that the Islamists are embracing the idea - for as long as it takes to get themselves into power. Then democracy will go back to be a "western" concept being "forced" on them by those mean ol' Americans.<br /><br />[3] Since anything "Muslim" is by definition off-limits to the infidel, altering the Hagia Sophia's status removes it from a possession of "civilization". I don't think it should be turned back into a cathedral - but turning it into a mosque is as illegitimate a response to history as the other.<br /><br />[4] museathedrosque: mew-zee-ah-THEED-rawsk<br />Thanks for the new word and pronunciation, but I am not foreseeing this being slipped into my "casual conversation" anytime soon. My friends already think I'm a "bit" weird.rlaWTXhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09319344164726195144noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-4306962030206073392012-06-11T15:18:19.612-04:002012-06-11T15:18:19.612-04:00Oh, and as an aside - Did you see that Madonna had...Oh, and as an aside - Did you see that Madonna had an intentional "wardrobe malfunction" causing her to bear her breast while performing in Turkey?BevfromNYChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14953050916932306270noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-67537280470083787332012-06-11T15:18:00.646-04:002012-06-11T15:18:00.646-04:00Koshcat: My life won't change much if Hagia S...Koshcat: My life won't change much if Hagia Sophia again becomes a mosque. But it will have a large effect on triumphalist Islam throughout the region and a very negative effect on the 10% of the Turkish population which is Christian. If the march of militant Islam continues, it will eventually affect me and mine and all Americans as we face a united militant Islamic front. Even Hitler and Stalin could get along with each other long enough to divvy up Poland. <br /><br />For now, neither I nor the US government can do anything about the looming re-conversion, but I still feel it's worth lamenting. It remains to be seen if a down-tick in tourism will cause any changes in the Islamic hostility to other religions and Western civilization.LawHawkRFDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17800255923675295515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-23682097922215538002012-06-11T15:10:08.483-04:002012-06-11T15:10:08.483-04:00Anthony and LawHawk - For the sake of accuracy, th...Anthony and LawHawk - For the sake of accuracy, the building of WTC mosque slash "community center" has effectively been halted. Not because of any objections (though they were frequent and loud), but because of something much more mundane - lack of financing. The people behind Park51 never had the money to build in the first place and have fallen behind in the rent. The owners are trying to evict them now for non-payment. There was so much fighting about the building and the contract, and community boards approvals that no one checked to see if there was any money backing up the proposal. <br /><br />But the real point is that there IS a double standard at play even at Ground Zero. The same groups that were so gungo about the building of the WTC mosque/community center were working overtime to deny permits for the RE-building of a Greek Orthodox church that had been leveled during the 2001 attacks.<br /><br />The sad part about Hagia Sophia is that once it has been reverted to a mosque, it will no longer be available as a magnificient historical site for non-muslims.BevfromNYChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14953050916932306270noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-69361144221122609162012-06-11T15:01:36.058-04:002012-06-11T15:01:36.058-04:00Tehachapi Tom: I don't think a cruise missile...Tehachapi Tom: I don't think a cruise missile on Hagia Sophia would solve anything, and even though they may eventually force our hand, I don't think we're ready to go to war with the various governments. We still have to sort out how to separate asymmetrical jihadism from formal governments, if such a thing is possible. Meantime, offering those governments huge amounts of foreign aid has proved not to be particularly efficacious, since mass murderers are not easily bribed.<br /><br />There is one small breath of good news coming out of the Middle East. The leading candidate for head of the Egyptian government has promised that their new constitution would include religious tolerance. It's probably a purely political move designed to pick up expatriate Egyptian and Coptic Christian votes, but it's the first time since the fall of Mubarak that we've heard a major Egyptian politician even suggest such a thing.LawHawkRFDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17800255923675295515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-14897292310448207722012-06-11T14:54:13.155-04:002012-06-11T14:54:13.155-04:00T-Rav: Ya got that right!T-Rav: Ya got that right!LawHawkRFDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17800255923675295515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-24640022564566798182012-06-11T14:46:16.012-04:002012-06-11T14:46:16.012-04:00I see your point, LawHawk but I can see just as ea...I see your point, LawHawk but I can see just as easliy the position of mouslims as well. It was a mosque for 600 years until it was decreed a museum. I think it is both politically and economically unwise to change it back as it has far more value as a museum. But since when has Islamic thought been pragmatic. In the scheme of things it is just a very old building. If it changes, I won't lose much sleep over it but it will be another reason not to visit the city and spend my money there. The Egyptians are learning how painful it is to treat Christians so poorly as tourist money has evaporated.Koshcatnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-51017680447371555272012-06-11T14:41:32.153-04:002012-06-11T14:41:32.153-04:00Hawk
Two cruise missiles would make this whole iss...Hawk<br />Two cruise missiles would make this whole issue mute. Since we do not have jihad in our mo lets start a "KJIBE" as a new crusade in response to the intolerance of Islam. Meet their intolerance with a stronger level of intolerance executed with the most sophisticated technology in the world.<br />The Islamist would understand that and probably would go quiet for another 100 years or more. Remember the Barbary Coast would be the battle cry.Tehachapi Tomnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-23508717932740085632012-06-11T14:12:19.841-04:002012-06-11T14:12:19.841-04:00LawHawk: When people get death threats simply for ...LawHawk: When people get death threats simply for translating the Koran out of Arabic, it's really worth questioning how tolerant the religion is.T-Ravhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10861218035729479354noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-15008904333636106862012-06-11T13:12:11.845-04:002012-06-11T13:12:11.845-04:00Historically, I see the re-conversion of Hagia Sop...Historically, I see the re-conversion of Hagia Sophia into a mosque as something on the order of the burning (accidental or intentional)of the library of Alexandria by Caesar's troops. The world will go on, but it will be a lesser place than it was before the disaster.<br /><br />Also historically, and much more recently, I see this re-conversion of Hagia Sophia in the same light as the Taliban destruction of the Buddhist statues. Though they were "only statues," they had represented historical tolerance of a minority religion, and the act of destruction was only the precursor of things to come.LawHawkRFDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17800255923675295515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-28723372711657440052012-06-11T12:57:15.299-04:002012-06-11T12:57:15.299-04:00tryanmax: Thanks. I can do it now, but it's ...tryanmax: Thanks. I can do it now, but it's still a tongue-twister.LawHawkRFDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17800255923675295515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-35537437532725190532012-06-11T12:52:45.818-04:002012-06-11T12:52:45.818-04:00Hawk: "mew-zee-ah-THEED-rawsk"Hawk: "mew-zee-ah-THEED-rawsk"tryanmaxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09881154741574720094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-40848759556895377192012-06-11T12:48:13.301-04:002012-06-11T12:48:13.301-04:00tryanmax: I'm not sure I'd be able to pro...tryanmax: I'm not sure I'd be able to pronounce "museathedrosque." LOLLawHawkRFDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17800255923675295515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-19326945750066770102012-06-11T12:46:25.279-04:002012-06-11T12:46:25.279-04:00T-Rav: I've discussed this before, but it'...T-Rav: I've discussed this before, but it's worth simple repetition. Judaism and Christianity contain certain fundamental beliefs, and everything else is subject to reference to the modern world and change ("exegisis"). Islam does not tolerate any change of any kind in the meaning of the words of the Koran or the wisdom of Mohammed. Thus, with very rare exception, the secular/religious nature of Islam has not changed one iota since Mohammed emerged from the cave.<br /><br />Caesorpapism was an aberration of Medieval Christianity, but is not supported by Christian doctrine. As Jesus said: "Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's, and unto God the things which are God's." Thus, the separation of civilian authority from religious authority contained in the Constitution is very much in keeping with Christian doctrine. Any religion which seeks to prevail must do so by persuasion, not by government force.<br /><br />There is no room for such a thing in Islamic religious thought. Within Islam, there is no argument that the religious leaders should not also be the secular leaders. It is only a matter of <i>which</i> religious authorities should be in charge.LawHawkRFDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17800255923675295515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-47570970669028119192012-06-11T12:34:22.649-04:002012-06-11T12:34:22.649-04:00Andrew: We're going to have to disagree on th...Andrew: We're going to have to disagree on this one. I do care, and re-conversion of a formerly-Christian cathedral, now a jointly-controlled historical museum, into a symbol of Muslim intolerance bothers me greatly. I would be concerned if the Library of Congress were to be converted into a Wal-Mart, and religion doesn't even enter into that calculation. <br /><br />Hagia Sopia ("Holy Wisdom") is more than just a building, or even a religious site. It's a symbol of civilization, which is quickly disappearing in the Middle East.LawHawkRFDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17800255923675295515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-45255900365128465652012-06-11T12:26:44.569-04:002012-06-11T12:26:44.569-04:00tryanmax: Agreed. I made a similar comment (abov...tryanmax: Agreed. I made a similar comment (above).LawHawkRFDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17800255923675295515noreply@blogger.com