tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post6316182792906510558..comments2023-09-15T04:27:57.129-04:00Comments on Commentarama: Obamacare Bureaucracy vs. Religious BeliefAndrewPricehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comBlogger26125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-55549988408294610802012-02-01T12:14:46.626-05:002012-02-01T12:14:46.626-05:00Patti: That's the way I see it. If they can ...Patti: That's the way I see it. If they can interfere in Catholic beliefs, they can interfere in mine. My heart is with the Catholics, and my head is with my own self-interest.LawHawkRFDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17800255923675295515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-65908150490210613772012-02-01T09:22:56.323-05:002012-02-01T09:22:56.323-05:00law: it's just another middle finger pointed i...law: it's just another middle finger pointed in our direction from barry and crew. <br /><br />this is a very personal choice for catholics, and law you're right. it's one thing to make the decision on your own, an entirely different matter to have the government make it for you.Notawonkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15388997298014397980noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-6705036430545906042012-01-31T18:52:57.388-05:002012-01-31T18:52:57.388-05:00Stan: Truer words were never spoken. I truly fea...Stan: Truer words were never spoken. I truly fear for the survival of the Republic if Obama gets another term. If he faces an even more hostile Congress than he has now, it will push him over the edge into rule by fiat. He won't win that battle, but right now we don't need a constitutional crisis.<br /><br />Fortunately, the Catholics on the Supreme Court are all traditional "original intent, original words, natural law" types. They might rule against their own church if they thought the Constitution required it, but I don't think they will ever need to reach that point. Calling religious oppression "health care" is like calling a skunk a rose. It won't wash with the Supreme Court. I'm guessing that if it ever gets to the high court, they will come up with guidelines protecting religious belief except for the most unrelated and tangential functions of the secular parts of the church's operations. Catholic hospitals are, well, Catholic. That's neither secular nor tangential.LawHawkRFDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17800255923675295515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-81215482985734594552012-01-31T18:40:02.071-05:002012-01-31T18:40:02.071-05:00There are so many things about Barry, and Barrycar...There are so many things about Barry, and Barrycare that will destroy this country. I f we don’t send this clown packing in November, I fear for our great Republic. <br /><br />That being said there are six Catholics on the Supreme Court, this in my mind doesn’t bode well for Barry. I hope they deliver justice based on law, “but!”StanHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07395708786509590321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-55797433831997201022012-01-31T16:30:06.661-05:002012-01-31T16:30:06.661-05:00T-Rav: I'm a big fan of cautious optimism.T-Rav: I'm a big fan of cautious optimism.LawHawkRFDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17800255923675295515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-64507191802501162442012-01-31T14:36:16.782-05:002012-01-31T14:36:16.782-05:00I guess this is proof that I shouldn't be too ...I guess this is proof that I shouldn't be too pessimistic. But it's hard. :-/T-Ravhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10861218035729479354noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-62407737651863967862012-01-31T13:34:35.611-05:002012-01-31T13:34:35.611-05:00tryanmax: The administration and its suckups in t...tryanmax: The administration and its suckups in the MSM tend to go after the Catholic Church first simply because it's the biggest single target. Protestants and Jews don't have single central authority, so attacks on them are too scattershot to suit the left. But I think you're right. Evangelicals particularly are starting to see that when the government is done eviscerating religious freedom for Catholics, they're next. Particularly in light of the strong Evangelical movement supporting Israel.<br /><br />My own fellow Lutherans, have been far too namby-pamby about government intrusion, but I can still take pride in the fact that it was a Lutheran church that won the NLRB case over who gets to decide what "ministry" means.LawHawkRFDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17800255923675295515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-81718142495013056202012-01-31T13:23:38.475-05:002012-01-31T13:23:38.475-05:00LawHawk, I think that lesson has been well learned...LawHawk, I think that lesson has been well learned by evangelicals in this country. Certain evangelicals have very pointed opinions about which direction Catholics may be going when they shuffle off this mortal coil, but at the end of the day, they know that the wind which blows against the Catholic Church blows against them as well. <br /><br />If anything, I think the government and media's focus on the Catholic Church reveals their myopia on the subject of Christianity. That may well turn out to be a very good thing.tryanmaxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09881154741574720094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-27982121902255761392012-01-31T13:20:34.137-05:002012-01-31T13:20:34.137-05:00T-Rav and Bev: Meanwhile, back in the fever swamp...T-Rav and Bev: Meanwhile, back in the fever swamp of DC, Sen. Marco Rubio is introducing legislation that would give a blanket exemption to religious and faith-based organizations. Another reason I really like Rubio. <br /><br />A member of the Catholic League just appeared on Fox and laid the issue out very well. He was perfectly frank about the way most Catholics view contraception (liberal vs. conservative view). But he is seeing a united response from his fellow Catholics, not because of contraception itself, but the arrogance of the government interfering in their church's affair. As he said, he's getting letters from all over the country from his fellow Catholics, Protestants and Jews supporting the church's opposition to the mandate.LawHawkRFDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17800255923675295515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-53764616957775852302012-01-31T13:11:01.506-05:002012-01-31T13:11:01.506-05:00Bev, the Catholic leadership has a historical tend...Bev, the Catholic leadership has a historical tendency to put up a fight on the things that really matter. Let's hope Dolan and the rest come through this time as well.T-Ravhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10861218035729479354noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-86869389500189686952012-01-31T12:46:49.338-05:002012-01-31T12:46:49.338-05:00Bev: There is an expression that came out of the ...Bev: There is an expression that came out of the late 80s and early 90s that needs to be revived now. "Muscular Christianity." I hope Cardinal Dolan is aware of it and intends to practice it. The good pastor leads and tends to his sheep, he doesn't become one of them.LawHawkRFDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17800255923675295515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-8424315370495512462012-01-31T12:38:18.481-05:002012-01-31T12:38:18.481-05:00T-Rav and LawHawk - Our soon to be new Cardinal Do...T-Rav and LawHawk - Our soon to be new Cardinal Dolan in NY is leading the fight for Catholics as he is the head of the "Organization That Fights For Catholic Stuff" group. (I don't mean to be disrespectful, but I am just too lazy to look up the real name of the organization). Once he gets his red cap in 12 days, he is making this his first priority. Though he looks kindly, I don't think he will back down at all.BevfromNYChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14953050916932306270noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-24298964458148063022012-01-31T12:36:29.651-05:002012-01-31T12:36:29.651-05:00rlaWTX: Indeed. A little religious freedom lost ...rlaWTX: Indeed. A little religious freedom lost here, a little freedom of worship lost there, a little forced secularism another place, and soon the First Amendment guarantees disappear entirely. As Robert Heinlein said: " “There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him.”LawHawkRFDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17800255923675295515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-91165361313589830422012-01-31T12:19:30.978-05:002012-01-31T12:19:30.978-05:00encroachment by inches and hidden by legalese and ...encroachment by inches and hidden by legalese and "equality"...rlaWTXhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09319344164726195144noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-67792795518413980592012-01-31T11:43:21.946-05:002012-01-31T11:43:21.946-05:00Andrew: So true.Andrew: So true.LawHawkRFDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17800255923675295515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-26862435894700589922012-01-31T11:38:26.351-05:002012-01-31T11:38:26.351-05:00T-Rav: I'm guessing that this time the Bishop...T-Rav: I'm guessing that this time the Bishops really will fight. This is the death of religious freedom in small doses.LawHawkRFDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17800255923675295515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-24486949992092556802012-01-31T11:37:09.733-05:002012-01-31T11:37:09.733-05:00tryanmax: And that's something the administra...tryanmax: And that's something the administration is probably counting on. They've created a legal/religious morass with this requirement, and are accomplishing the task of putting another roadblock in the way of the practice of religion by using the relatively uncontroversial red herring of insurance coverage of birth control. Since the majority of Americans are not Catholic, let alone rigidly-doctrinaire Catholic, the administration is playing another cynical numbers game.LawHawkRFDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17800255923675295515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-43233297508482505512012-01-31T11:32:54.164-05:002012-01-31T11:32:54.164-05:00Tennessee: If the church were allowed to provide ...Tennessee: If the church were allowed to provide medical insurance, but require that contraceptive services be provided as a rider to be be paid for entirely by the employee, the issue might not be so contentious. The Catholic church isn't stupid, and it knows many of its employees are going to seek contraception anyway. The church just doesn't want to be required to provide it and pay for it.LawHawkRFDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17800255923675295515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-45242126434896047472012-01-31T11:27:33.014-05:002012-01-31T11:27:33.014-05:00Bev: The one year grace period gives the Obama ad...Bev: The one year grace period gives the Obama administration time to diddle with the law and make exceptions until after the 2012 elections. It's basically a smokescreen. The number of Catholics who use contraception has always been rather high, despite church teachings. But abortion has always been treated differently.<br /><br />I truly don't know what the church will do if this requirement continues to be rammed down its throat. I know that in a similar situation, rather than provide gay partnership health insurance as required by the City of San Francisco, the Salvation Army simply shut down all affected operations in the city. I'm not sure the Catholic church will do the same with its many hospitals, but it might.LawHawkRFDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17800255923675295515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-410396926357899942012-01-31T11:21:38.613-05:002012-01-31T11:21:38.613-05:00T-Rav: My experience has been that the Catholics ...T-Rav: My experience has been that the Catholics I know are pretty loose about the issue of contraception, but are starting to see that it's one thing for them to make that choice and quite another for the government to make that choice for them in direct defiance of church doctrine. The abortifacient issue comes closer to government requiring the church to pay for "abortion insurance," and that seems to have stirred up Catholics I know who were much less exercised about traditional birth control.LawHawkRFDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17800255923675295515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-30407331985122554272012-01-31T11:03:04.052-05:002012-01-31T11:03:04.052-05:00This is how government works. When it runs into s...This is how government works. When it runs into something that stands in its way, it praises it and then tries runs it over.<br /><br /><br /><br />P.S. Don't forget, it's <a href="http://commentaramafilms.blogspot.com/2012/01/questionable-trek-vol-2.html" rel="nofollow"><i>Star Trek Tuesday</i></a> at the film site! We're discussing <i>Wrath of Khan</i> today.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-69587231412363253932012-01-31T10:39:48.050-05:002012-01-31T10:39:48.050-05:00Bev, thanks a lot. That makes me feel all better. ...Bev, thanks a lot. That makes me feel all better. Or dead inside, I'm not sure which.<br /><br />The Catholic bishops have been saying they'll really fight Obama on this issue. Eh...we'll see.T-Ravhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10861218035729479354noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-81128511305669095662012-01-31T10:04:16.034-05:002012-01-31T10:04:16.034-05:00Bev, ...church-run or established medical faciliti...Bev, <i>...church-run or established medical facilities will...force non-religious employees to leave.</i><br /><br />I don't see that as a possibility. Sounds like a discrimination suit just waiting to happen.tryanmaxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09881154741574720094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-65366596482227053552012-01-31T09:57:30.010-05:002012-01-31T09:57:30.010-05:00To state that the Obama administration is hostile ...To state that the Obama administration is hostile to religion is, of course, settled science. I'm not exactly sure that is specifically what is behind this legal approach, at least not consciously. Forget for a moment that there real solution is 100% tax payer funded, govt. administered health care, and a woman's birth right as an American to have tax payer funded birth control provided. Hell, even forget for a minute that the people who are having tih provided by my tax dollars are exactly the people who shouldn't be producing children, but are probably the very same people who won't use the b.c.<br /><br />Forgetting all that, I think these people are honest in their belief of rendering unto Caesar, so to speak. What this really shows me is how complex legal issues can be (e.g. the devil is in the details) and also why the government needs to be kept as small and non-intrusive as possible. The very idea that a government can tell me I have to pay for somebody elses birth control pills or condums or whatever is an anathema.Tennessee Jedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10604275115906776992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-9793901241862088942012-01-31T09:54:23.973-05:002012-01-31T09:54:23.973-05:00T-Rav - Of course good Catholics have ignored the ...T-Rav - Of course good Catholics have ignored the contraception rules since the beginning of time. Catholic girls have been getting abortions for the same amount of time. No one talked about it. The Church said "No" and what the Church don't know won't hurt 'em. Now the Church will have to take a proactive role contrary to their tenets by having to direct and counsel their employees to where to obtain contraception and pay for it. <br /><br />The one thing that LawHawk left out is that the Churches only have a 1 year grace period until they must comply completely.<br /><br />It is possible that if they are really pushed to the wall, church-run or established medical facilities will either close or force non-religious employees to leave.BevfromNYChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14953050916932306270noreply@blogger.com