tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post7373975110710990487..comments2023-09-15T04:27:57.129-04:00Comments on Commentarama: Biting The Hand That Fed YouAndrewPricehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-87243899518917035352011-10-25T17:29:04.590-04:002011-10-25T17:29:04.590-04:00Stan: A world without Islam is like a day without...Stan: A world without Islam is like a day without mass murder.LawHawkRFDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17800255923675295515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-34844231012228821272011-10-25T17:28:11.184-04:002011-10-25T17:28:11.184-04:00T-Rav and Stan: And now you know what I meant abo...T-Rav and Stan: And now you know what I meant about bombing them <i>forward</i> into the stone age.LawHawkRFDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17800255923675295515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-53672293399210679612011-10-25T15:42:41.695-04:002011-10-25T15:42:41.695-04:0011th century BC works for me, six one half dozen t...11th century BC works for me, six one half dozen the other. However, I could make a real good argument for BC, they would not be infected with Islam.StanHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07395708786509590321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-16672087261361024142011-10-25T15:13:54.868-04:002011-10-25T15:13:54.868-04:00Stan: I assume you meant "11th century BC,&qu...Stan: I assume you meant "11th century BC," of course.T-Ravhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10861218035729479354noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-45949334337796049532011-10-25T14:29:17.695-04:002011-10-25T14:29:17.695-04:00StanH: I'm beginning to sense a single source...StanH: I'm beginning to sense a single source of agreement across-the-boards here. No matter what Karzai thinks he's accomplishing, he's a dead duck the moment we pull out last troops out. As for the Afghans themselves, we'd have to bomb them <i>forward</i> into the stone age.LawHawkRFDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17800255923675295515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-6426206656175240482011-10-25T14:23:16.868-04:002011-10-25T14:23:16.868-04:00To say that Karzai is duplicitous is being far too...To say that Karzai is duplicitous is being far too generous. This man will survive, up and until the day we leave, in my opinion, he had best hop the last plane out of Afghanistan. As far as his statement heard in Pakistan. I can understand his allegiance, after all when we pull out, and “if ” he stays, these will be his new neighbors, crazy very well armed Islamo-Fascist neighbors at that, I can understand the hedging. I expect Afghanistan to return to the 11th century soon after our departure, back to normal.StanHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07395708786509590321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-58480706198231129002011-10-25T13:35:05.231-04:002011-10-25T13:35:05.231-04:00Andrew: You may very well be right. On the other...Andrew: You may very well be right. On the other hand, he may actually think he has pulled off being all things to all men. In which case, he'll stay, and it will be ten minutes before his "friends" hang him.<br /><br />Of course if he does flee, the next question is how much loot he has accumulated to take with him.LawHawkRFDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17800255923675295515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-67332659632463805172011-10-25T13:32:20.151-04:002011-10-25T13:32:20.151-04:00T-Rav: We can guess at his motivation, but it'...T-Rav: We can guess at his motivation, but it's hard for civilized Westerners to get into the minds of most Islamists, let alone the minds of a people who have known nothing but tribal warfare for thousands of years. <br /><br />I tend to think that Karzai simply out-clevered himself. He was foolish enough to think he could say something in Pashtun or Punjabi on a Pakistan TV show and not have it get back to the US almost instantly, <i>correctly translated</i>.LawHawkRFDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17800255923675295515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-42435569802421909372011-10-25T13:28:10.349-04:002011-10-25T13:28:10.349-04:00Karzai is just like the rest. His brother is a dr...Karzai is just like the rest. His brother is a drug dealing warlord, his government is so corrupt they've squandered any good will they had, and he's going to play to the crowd to save his neck. I suspect he'll leave (flee) office about ten minutes after the last US soldier departs.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-58991443849162464132011-10-25T13:09:51.797-04:002011-10-25T13:09:51.797-04:00Great. Well, as Joel points out, I get that Karzai...Great. Well, as Joel points out, I get that Karzai has to dissemble from time to time when dealing with the various tribes; however, he should be sharp enough to know what kind of reaction this would have overseas. Which makes me wonder what caliber of "leadership" he really has.T-Ravhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10861218035729479354noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-5480043168576127132011-10-25T12:30:16.421-04:002011-10-25T12:30:16.421-04:00It makes me wonder about backroom deals and his po...It makes me wonder about backroom deals and his post-presidency plans.<br /><br />When I was in NoVA, a man I worked with had known Karzai in junior high - before the Soviet invasion. His family had been asked to come back for the re-organization, but they weren't keen on returning after 25+ years in the US. Anyway, I wish I could ask him what he thought about this...rlaWTXhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09319344164726195144noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-64402102982274911412011-10-25T12:26:01.616-04:002011-10-25T12:26:01.616-04:00Tehachapi Tom: Karzai is counting on us not consi...Tehachapi Tom: Karzai is counting on us not considering him or his government (which we helped to create) as part of the pack we would attack with drones or other methods. That's where he may have made his biggest mistake. Our sole legitimate interest is to keep Al Qaeda or some successor from re-forming and using Afghanistan as a launching pad. If Karzai thinks he can mollify the Taliban and the other Islamists by allowing them free rein in the outlying provinces, he'll be devoured by them and probably get a visit from us as well.<br /><br />We must learn to adapt to the idea that democracy-building in primitive nations and in those with Islamic dreams of world conquest is a tragic waste of lives and resources. The best we can do is use diplomatic, economic and military resources to prevent them from arming themselves to attack us. Our national security is far more important than some hare-brained attempt to turn cave-dwellers into peaceful democrats overnight.<br /><br />In the case of these nations, the Machiavellian question is apt: Is it better to be loved or feared? Until they become modern, educated, freedom-loving societies, it is better to be feared.<br /><br />Oddly, the only Middle East nation with any hope of becoming a modern society in the foreseeable future is Iran, and we blew every opportunity to assist the freedom movement there. So now instead we face the "Arab Spring" which in actuality is turning out to be the "Jihadist Winter."LawHawkRFDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17800255923675295515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-30382093736895738972011-10-25T12:03:13.935-04:002011-10-25T12:03:13.935-04:00tryanmax: I agree. If Karzai were any good at th...tryanmax: I agree. If Karzai were any good at this, he'd learn how to play both sides against the middle without getting crushed himself. He's still a primitive in a primitive nation, and doesn't realize that the secrets of old can no longer be maintained within the confines of whatever tent he's in at the moment.LawHawkRFDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17800255923675295515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-35282760876398146972011-10-25T12:00:46.086-04:002011-10-25T12:00:46.086-04:00Joel: What you're saying is true. But we hav...Joel: What you're saying is true. But we have made more friends in Afghanistan than most previous invaders, including the British and the Russians. It's hard to see what advantage he thinks he'll gain among the warring tribes by threatening us and making nice with the Taliban and the Haqqani in Pakistan. Tribal warfare will go on long after we're gone, so why irritate the one nation that didn't oppress them? We assisted him and his government without demanding much in return. I genuinely think that Karzai is only interested in Karzai, but wannabe dictators like that normally put on a public face that doesn't threaten their benefactors. Iran, Pakistan or some other nation in the Middle East certainly won't be as generous, and he'll still have his warring tribes to deal with.LawHawkRFDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17800255923675295515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-27257279502664300232011-10-25T11:53:53.666-04:002011-10-25T11:53:53.666-04:00Tennessee: You're exactly right about how dif...Tennessee: You're exactly right about how difficult it is to deal with a backward tribal society like Afghanistan. That said, I wouldn't expect to have an Afghan president who was a true-blue American ally in the Islamic world. Karzai is just an example of how little respect we get for trying to make a tribal society into a modern democracy overnight. Even with all our brave troops still in-country, he feels completely free to threaten us because he knows that we won't do much about it. On the other hand, cozying up to the scorpions of the area probably isn't going to do much for him either.LawHawkRFDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17800255923675295515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-27877510423892028012011-10-25T11:05:16.077-04:002011-10-25T11:05:16.077-04:00Hawk
That whole part of the world is unstable.
Giv...Hawk<br />That whole part of the world is unstable.<br />Give it all back to the animals that they are.<br />They now know that surgical strikes by our drones are effective.<br />Leave with the assurance that we will make such strikes when and if we think it necessary.<br />Outline what we will and won't accept then turn them loose.<br />Like raising children set boundaries and punish when they are violated.Tehachapi Tomnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-3250355309741297962011-10-25T10:41:59.319-04:002011-10-25T10:41:59.319-04:00It's all a show designed to set a posture for ...It's all a show designed to set a posture for any possible eventuality. But Karzai does forget that the instant global media makes that a more delicate act than ever before.tryanmaxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09881154741574720094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-7239493111448105692011-10-25T09:47:06.456-04:002011-10-25T09:47:06.456-04:00LawHawk,
I don't know if I would do any diffe...LawHawk,<br /><br />I don't know if I would do any different if I was in his shoes. They have a clan structure there. That means that the strongest clan dictates the rules. It also means that automatically any one clan is at odds with other clans. The Taliban knows this and can undermine Karzai almost at will. <br /><br />The real problem is that the clans, don't trust each other. Also, they have learned from past experiences, that our country will abandon them as often as we change Presidents. <br /><br />Karzai really hasn't made his case to his country that his rule will bring peace and prosperity. He hasn't made the case that he will still be there after we leave. He will have to shift his loyalties time and time again just to survive.<br /><br />Also, he <i><b>doesn't</b></i> know if Obama has a predator drone aiming for him. Obama hasn't hinted at it. Which means nothing.Joel Farnhamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15856960977033430002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-43449121086091248062011-10-25T09:36:41.872-04:002011-10-25T09:36:41.872-04:00Hawk - this reminds me just how complex foreign po...Hawk - this reminds me just how complex foreign policy can be when dealing with the Islamic world and an Al Jazeera media. Essentially, we have governments that we have spent blood and treasure to try and free from dictatorships and make "allies." At the same time, we are dutifully shown to be the straw villain for every ill that befalls the people (The Great Satan if you will.)<br /><br />There is a part of me that says to hell with them all. On the other hand, to do so leaves us open to adventurism by our enemies be it Russia, China, or Iran. Tough times and a tough deal. I really feel for the families of slain servicepeople who died only to have this president score points with his shitty little leftist fringe groupies.Tennessee Jedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10604275115906776992noreply@blogger.com