tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post1129791463304516450..comments2023-09-15T04:27:57.129-04:00Comments on Commentarama: Liberals Savaging LiberalsAndrewPricehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-29550119277642347782011-03-23T23:57:22.099-04:002011-03-23T23:57:22.099-04:00Joe, That's a good point too. And keep this i...Joe, That's a good point too. And keep this in mind, since the 1980s, they've learned that the only way the public will accept them is if they lie about their beliefs. Thus, they claim to be pro-tax cuts, pro-controlling spending, pro-military... when they are no such thing. That can't make them too happy!<br /><br />Andalusia! LOL! Yeah, you say tongue in cheek, but a part of Islam is about ancient grievances. So it's not too tongue in cheek.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-16523219672400883722011-03-23T23:28:26.732-04:002011-03-23T23:28:26.732-04:00You forgot the emotional baggage of losing - debat...You forgot the emotional baggage of losing - debates, elections, power, etc. The only other group I can think of with such long term emotional baggage is the Islamists who still long for Andalusia. (For the sarcasm impaired, that last comment is somewhat tongue-in-cheek.)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12311357404289485390noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-6191547013809530972011-03-23T22:38:57.315-04:002011-03-23T22:38:57.315-04:00Joe, Very true. I think all three of those are di...Joe, Very true. I think all three of those are different forms of long term thinking, preferring to accept short term pain in exchange for long term benefits/happiness.<br /><br />In terms of short term v. emotional response/immediate gratification, I agree. I think you and I are essentially describing the same things, only using slightly different terminology. :-)<br /><br />And however we describe it, the end result is that it makes it very hard for conservatives and liberals to get along and I think it infuses liberalism with a good deal of the baggage of emotionalism, e.g. anger at dissent and feelings of betrayal when other liberals change their mind.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-75910460195947821352011-03-23T22:18:13.146-04:002011-03-23T22:18:13.146-04:00Andrew,
What you are characterizing as short term ...Andrew,<br />What you are characterizing as short term thinking is what I'm essentially calling the emotional side. What you say is the immediate fix,I would say is just a craving for immediate gratification. The emotional response (in my view) is they feel good about themselves for "helping" and that desire for more short-term gratification leads to short-term feel-good solutions.<br /><br /><br />Your long term thinkers (and rewards) is an interesting way of looking at the divide. It would fit with social, religious, and fiscal conservatives - a socials is the stable society, fiscal is investment in the future, and a religious conservative's reward is in heaven. All long term versus short term rewards.<br /><br />JoeAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12311357404289485390noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-42108512586593329642011-03-23T21:57:18.761-04:002011-03-23T21:57:18.761-04:00Joe, Welcome! (Sorry your comment didn't come...Joe, Welcome! (Sorry your comment didn't come up right away, you got caught by Google spam filter.)<br /><br />I used the word "ignorant," but perhaps a bit imprecisely. My experience with liberals is that they are short term thinkers. They see a problem and they want an immediate fix. They are not interested in the long term effects of that solution.<br /><br />The reason I say "ignorant" with regard to liberals is that they are much more likely to ignore facts, history or logic that conflict with their desire to put this quick fix in place.<br /><br />Conservatives, on the other hand, tend to be long term thinkers and are willing to let people bear the consequences of their prior bad actions to avoid putting in place a policy that encourages more people to repeat their mistake. Liberals view this as harsh because it doesn't provide the immediate fix the liberals prefer, and they give no credit to the idea of protecting people in the future.<br /><br />This is why the two philosophies are so diametrically opposed -- because they focus on fundamentally different issues, even when they are talking about the same problem.<br /><br />I see conservative solutions as superior for a number of reasons. First, by stopping the problem from reoccurring, you typically help more people than you help with a quick fix. Secondly, conservative solutions tend to involve encouraging people to change behavior, whereas liberal solutions are much more likely to involve force to change behavior -- particularly force of law. Third, conservative solutions tend to be based on principle that can be consistently applied and understood and allows people to plan. Liberal solutions, on the other hand, tend to be ad hoc and subjective and keep people from knowing what the rules will be at any particular time. Fourth, I think that any solution that ignores logic and fact and instead uses emotion is doomed to fail -- and indeed, the history of liberal is a history of constantly having to try to solve the unintended consequences of prior liberal policies.<br /><br />That said, there are times when short term thinking is more appropriate or when a combination of both should be used. But in general, the long term thinkers will create the better society.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-66540299124738308592011-03-23T21:08:53.009-04:002011-03-23T21:08:53.009-04:00I just started reading this site after seeing the ...I just started reading this site after seeing the link on Stranahan's site. I'm not a recovering liberal, I just am fascinated by stories of the Left's canibalism.<br /><br />Someone was commenting about liberalism attracting the ignorent. I'm not sure it's that as much as it attracts people who feel more than they think while the Right is people who think or emphasize thinking more than feeling when it comes to making the hard decisions. One of the hardest things in life is learning to think critically. Some learn, some learn as they age, some learn when they're confronted by a reality they can't avoid, and others just never learn. To some extent, I blame the "if it feels good, do it generation". Emotion over thought.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12311357404289485390noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-40732534363585021402011-03-23T18:41:26.264-04:002011-03-23T18:41:26.264-04:00Johnny 5 is alive,
Thanks! :-)
It's always g...Johnny 5 is alive,<br /><br />Thanks! :-)<br /><br />It's always great to hear that people like what we do here and it's great that you thought enough of us to recommend us! Please, by all means, feel free to tell people about our site. We're happy to have everyone -- liberal or conservative.<br /><br />I should also thank you for leading me to Stranahan's site. He's an interesting guy and I look forward to reading more of his thoughts.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-55722727697073224512011-03-23T18:33:59.798-04:002011-03-23T18:33:59.798-04:00rlaWTX, I have that fear too, that there are more ...rlaWTX, I have that fear too, that there are more and more nasties on the right these days. We really do need to find a way to get everyone back to being civil or things are just going to get uglier and uglier in public life.<br /><br />I know what you mean about liberals. I've been at parties where the liberals just start spouting off about how no could possibly disagree with _____. Unbelievable. Talking politics and religion at parties is bad form, and telling everyone that they better agree with you is even worse. Besides, you would think by now that everyone would realize that people have all kinds of different beliefs and opinions and the idea that we all share the same thought is just ludicrous!AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-57164502209194491782011-03-23T18:23:24.032-04:002011-03-23T18:23:24.032-04:00You're welcome!
Keep up the great work. Wh...You're welcome! <br /><br />Keep up the great work. Where ever I see rational debate going on I drop a link to Commentarama.....<br />doesn't everybody ;)<br /><br />And now you know who I am ;)<br /><br />Johnny 5 is aliveAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-82500495070246904592011-03-23T17:30:47.658-04:002011-03-23T17:30:47.658-04:00You just gotta feel sorry for a lib when reality k...You just gotta feel sorry for a lib when reality knocks 'em upside th head...<br /><br />I have seen this liberal nastiness even at such egalitarian gatherings as family reunions. And they assume that everyone within sound of their voice agrees with them. And are (loudly) offended if someone intimates that they do not agree. <br /><br />Unfortunately, I am afraid that the group of nasty righties is growing. And growing louder.rlaWTXhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09319344164726195144noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-54014455294543873022011-03-23T15:30:49.555-04:002011-03-23T15:30:49.555-04:00Bev, You should change that to your screen name at...Bev, You should change that to your screen name at Huffpo!Ednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-45387264127063080362011-03-23T15:06:41.002-04:002011-03-23T15:06:41.002-04:00Thanks Bev!
Yeah, I thought it was really cool wh...Thanks Bev!<br /><br />Yeah, I thought it was really cool what the guy said in the comments about us. :-)<br /><br />Sorry to hear that you're "ignorantly misinformed," but I guess that describes all of us who aren't deigned to have the sacred knowledge of liberaldom! LOL!<br /><br />And I think we know the reason they can't tell you why you are ignorantly misinformed, because they don't have any idea, and because they're probably terrified that if they tried to get into it, you would hit them fact-facts rather than "I'm pretty sure it's true" facts, and that would make it that much harder for them to keep living the lie!<br /><br />You know, you would think there would come a point where liberals would get sick of attacking everyone who disagrees with them, but I guess not. I know I would get sick of it pretty quickly. Seriously, what's the point in only talking to people who parrot back everything you say to them?AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-78776284625009297012011-03-23T14:48:21.462-04:002011-03-23T14:48:21.462-04:00Once again, you hit it out of the park, hit the na...Once again, you hit it out of the park, hit the nail on the head, hit...something really great! And the guy who commented on Stranahan's website, well, that was totally cool.<br /><br />Anyway, finally someone is beginning to see what we have seen for a long, long time. Both sides can be nasty, but the Left just has a particularly virulent strain of nasty especially towards their own.<br /><br />And this is very timely. Why just today, I was called "ignorantly misinformed" on HuffPo for...oh,well, it doesn't really matter on what topic since I'm called that frequently on HuffPo. However what's amusing is when I ask how, they rarely, if ever, can tell me why.BevfromNYChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14953050916932306270noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-76723652048300545272011-03-23T12:57:35.337-04:002011-03-23T12:57:35.337-04:00Thanks Lawhawk. I think it's all part of a pr...Thanks Lawhawk. I think it's all part of a pretty clear pattern. What I'm hoping is that as more liberals see it, that they push back and try to get other liberals to finally live up to their claims of having open minds. I'm not expecting that to happen, but I'm hoping.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-32876171183286440252011-03-23T12:49:38.857-04:002011-03-23T12:49:38.857-04:00Andrew: Excellent expansion on the theme of locks...Andrew: Excellent expansion on the theme of lockstep liberalism. I touched the surface yesterday with the <i>NY Times</i> twisting of the story of a liberal who dared to disagree with his fellows and was labeled "traitor," but this article reaches into the forum of lockstep liberal "journalism." Truth is always the first victim in leftist civil wars.<br /><br />Joel: I wasn't so much mugged by reality as abandoned by "the movement." Hell hath no fury like an ex-liberal scorned. LOLLawHawkRFDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17800255923675295515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-12328045745844477142011-03-23T12:05:36.571-04:002011-03-23T12:05:36.571-04:00T_Rav, Sadly, it doesn't surprise me. I see t...T_Rav, Sadly, it doesn't surprise me. I see that a lot with liberals. I've been amazed at how many liberals I've spoken to who simply do not care what the facts are, they will not change their minds.<br /><br />I've also met many who simply will not trust a conservative source, even if the conservative points them to a liberal source. It really is like a mental problem.<br /><br />In any event, it really has been interesting to see the difference between the conservative and liberal commenters at his site.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-55824829427227019652011-03-23T11:21:00.787-04:002011-03-23T11:21:00.787-04:00Andrew, I think it's very telling that at leas...Andrew, I think it's very telling that at least one person responding to Stranahan flat-out said, "We don't care whether it's true or not true, it just doesn't matter to us." But then, liberals don't generally believe in objective truth, so I guess that shouldn't surprise me too much.T_Ravnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-28720481144912592792011-03-23T10:29:23.101-04:002011-03-23T10:29:23.101-04:00T_Rav, I like to think that we've already pass...T_Rav, I like to think that we've already passed Huffpo in popularity! Of course, I'm wrong in that belief, but I like to believe it nevertheless. ;-)<br /><br />Yeah, some of the comments are really amazing. They are truly taking it personally that he's even asking questions. To me, that's stunning. Seriously, how many times have we had disagreements here? It happens all the time and yet we're all still friends and no one feels betrayed by it. There's really something wrong with a lot of those people.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-37741224675379230832011-03-23T10:24:50.782-04:002011-03-23T10:24:50.782-04:00(continued)
Also, I will say honestly that I think...(continued)<br />Also, I will say honestly that I think liberalism attracts the ignorant. For the most part, you need to have a brain to be a conservative because conservatism is about logical policies (though there are some major exceptions). But liberalism is for people want to feel good about things, and thinking is discouraged because if you think too hard, you realize that liberalism has failed every time it's been tried.<br /><br />So I think you have an adverse selection issue where the ignorant flock to liberalism and then they have been pushed further to the extreme by peer pressure. And that fits with what I've experienced about the high level of nastiness at liberal sites, which you generally don't get at conservative sites.<br /><br />Now, that said, there is a disturbing trend with conservatives who are courting ignorant populists.... "yu can't be a reel Amerikan if you is edukated." We're seeing a lot of that, and those people are the mirror image of the nasty left. They "feel things" with no proof, they ignore facts and reality, and they are ultra certain that they are right and everyone who disagrees with them is evil. That's a bad trend.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-34315039254987680072011-03-23T10:24:47.148-04:002011-03-23T10:24:47.148-04:00Jed, Thanks! I'm glad you liked it.
On your ...Jed, Thanks! I'm glad you liked it.<br /><br />On your points, I think your groups are right and I think you're right that the ignorant ones tend to be the loudest. You particularly see this at a place like Big Hollywood, where you get loads of comments like "I've never seen anything this person has done, but I know it's rotten." That's ignorance defined. And those people don't tend to like hearing reasoned opinions. Basically, you either agree with their pogrom or you are part of the problem.<br /><br />That said, I don't see these groups being equal in size. I might have seen that 20 years ago, but I think the left has undergone a serious tantrum since 2001, and these days the vast majority of liberals are spouting things that would formally have only been said by their fringe. Indeed, it's amazing how easily so many liberals fall into "hate speech." <br /><br />I think this is the result of the left ratcheting up the level of aggression, which in turn made comments that seemed slightly beyond good taste suddenly seem like not a big deal. This then fed on itself, pushing what is acceptable further out into loony land. In other words, when a large chunk of people around you are calling for someone to be savagely beaten, it becomes easier for everyone in the group to start saying more extreme things without even realizing it. And when you look at where they end up compared to where they started, you see a serious shift in behavior patterns.<br /><br />I think this is what happened on the left because so many "respectable" leftists starting doing things like calling Bush a war criminal and a traitor and even calling for his assassination. And then the MSM treatment of Palin only made this worse, as suddenly it became acceptable to attack her family and to attack her in truly personal ways.<br /><br />Nothing comparable has happened on the right.<br /><br />(continued)AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-47664040060762556552011-03-23T10:22:21.023-04:002011-03-23T10:22:21.023-04:00Ah, I see it now. I didn't look far enough the...Ah, I see it now. I didn't look far enough the first time. Cool! Maybe this joint really is on its way to being the Right's HuffPo! :-)<br /><br />Also, some of those comments he has linked are just...wow. I've seen the Huffers and the DKos freaks lay into each other before for suspected "heresy," but that's just amazing.T_Ravnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-14635686819189254562011-03-23T10:06:04.777-04:002011-03-23T10:06:04.777-04:00Ed, Let's hope. Like I say somewhere around h...Ed, Let's hope. Like I say somewhere around here, there is a good deal of common ground that can be reached with good faith liberals, there's just no common ground that can be reached with the nasty sort.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-58639499083177938662011-03-23T10:04:34.867-04:002011-03-23T10:04:34.867-04:00I'm sorry they treated him poorly, but I'm...I'm sorry they treated him poorly, but I'm glad it's opening his eyes. Let's hope more liberals begin to see these things!Ednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-75652173039105446592011-03-23T10:03:15.605-04:002011-03-23T10:03:15.605-04:00Very interesting piece, Andrew! I must admit, I ha...Very interesting piece, Andrew! I must admit, I have very little experience in the blogosphere so my credibility is limited. I put people into four categories, politically; possibly even 5 or 6. There are ignorant people who lean left, ignorant people who lean right, people who are literate, even erudite, but still firmly fall into one of the two camps. The other two categories are people who, actually are independant and look at each issue individually, and people who have zero interest in politics.<br /><br />Let us, for arguments sake, forget the last category. The first two categories (IL and IR) are the ones who most often make tasteless comments. Further, I think these two groups tend to comment more than the other three groups being considered.<br /><br />The literate, erudite groups, left and right, (including myself) are willing to listen to the other side, often recognize some merit in their points of view, but will occasionally fall prey to gratuitous mean spiritedness. Further these two groups are subject to the phenomenon known to psychologists as the "ladder of inference." This phenomenon basically states that we have our belief and will tend to seek out that information which supports it while dismissing or avoiding that which contradicts it. I recognize by biases and try, albeit not always successfully, to overcome them.<br /><br />The final (independant) group is almost like a phantom. They may exist, but I rarely see them. So, while I rarely see reasoned liberal comments, I'll admit that I don't go to enough sites to see them. As such, it would be easier for me to draw a conclusion. Of course, you know where I spend virtually all of my "blog" time.Tennessee Jedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10604275115906776992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-48324017937111281772011-03-23T09:41:11.908-04:002011-03-23T09:41:11.908-04:00Joel, "simians don't have a coalition tha...Joel, "simians don't have a coalition that I have to fear" -- LOL! Let's hope!<br /><br />You make a good point about conservatives who started as liberals. Many of the comments this guy got are from ex-liberals who say that once they switched sides, they were shocked at how bad liberals behaved. I personally have no illusions on that part. I know there are rotten conservatives and I know generally who they are when I meet them. But I also know that the vast majority of conservatives are good, reasonable people. On the other hand, I have rarely found a liberal who wasn't a nasty hypocrite (especially in private, where they think nothing of blatant racism, sexism, etc.). There are good liberals, don't get me wrong, but they are much rarer than good conservatives.<br /><br />I think it's also clear that conservatives are nowhere near lockstep. In fact, we have many factions arguing polar opposite positions (e.g. religious right v. libertarians). Liberals don't have that, they all fall in line.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.com