tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post1859674950355256518..comments2023-09-15T04:27:57.129-04:00Comments on Commentarama: Twisted HollywoodAndrewPricehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comBlogger45125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-63851119150634795842010-03-06T22:01:35.067-05:002010-03-06T22:01:35.067-05:00Indi, I'm not sure if the cliches are worse in...Indi, I'm not sure if the cliches are worse in science fiction, I think they're pretty bad all around. Action flicks and chick flicks are nothing but formula at this point. At least science fiction hasn't gotten to that point yet.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-60968731352242287942010-03-06T21:57:35.979-05:002010-03-06T21:57:35.979-05:00Interesting debate and interesting article. I hav...Interesting debate and interesting article. I have nothing to add.MegaTrollhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03234420338804013858noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-30664820802353890882010-03-06T21:49:34.315-05:002010-03-06T21:49:34.315-05:00Scott,
That is an issue that appears in the Origi...Scott,<br /><br />That is an issue that appears in the Original Star Trek series as well. Sorry I just have not watched enough next generation episodes to speak authoritatively there.<br /><br />There was actually an episode where spock say to Scotty as he is dying from radiation exposure in the warp core "Why don't you reverse the polarity of the {whatever it was I forget the exact term used}.<br /><br />But if you go through enough old comic books I think you might be surprised at the number of times the term "Reverse the Polarity" is used.<br /><br />Andrew: I think the problem with Sci Fi (especially recurring TV shows) is that there is not enough real scientific understanding am ong the writers. The real science fiction gems come from stories lie Jules Verne, Orwell, the makers of Gattaca etc. where the story is told by both a writer and a futurist. Someone that considers the svcientific implications of technology that might be and writes around that.<br /><br />The poorly written twist is worse in Sci Fi pictures I think.<br /><br />The secret word for this post was liess - - hmmm Google is trying to tell me something!Individualisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11005025873042230314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-36202920006415437962010-03-06T12:52:14.698-05:002010-03-06T12:52:14.698-05:00Scott, I doubt I'll be changing my mind about ...Scott, I doubt I'll be changing my mind about Moore anytime soon. I have no opinion about Braga at all, and I never did figure out what he did that made so many people hate him. But you're right, he seems to be truly hated by many Star Trek fans.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-62727754647372316742010-03-06T12:25:13.437-05:002010-03-06T12:25:13.437-05:00One last thing...
Both writers indicate that not ...One last thing...<br /><br />Both writers indicate that not everyone who worked on <i>Trek</i> believed in Roddenberry's Utopian ideas or that mankind would somehow rid itself of war, famine, etc. All nice ideas to be sure but when Picard is explaining to Alfre Woodard that they don't work for money, but to better themselves, Moore jokes, "Oh, I get it. It's a Socialist state!"<br /><br />But this is all fodder for another article. :-) (Now that I've gone completely off-topic.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-49771475785356986172010-03-06T12:21:24.773-05:002010-03-06T12:21:24.773-05:00Andrew - I know you're no fan of Moore but he ...Andrew - I know you're no fan of Moore but he comes across as a good guy in the DVD commentaries for <i>Generations</i> and <i>First Contact</i>, as does Braga who is hated among many Trek fans. Both are refreshingly candid.<br /><br />They admit their mistakes but more revealing are the brief anecdotes about the making of the <i>TNG</i> series itself. Neither is a fan of technobabble but very often they wrote themselves into a corner. Or they had a deadline to meet. Or the studio/Rick Berman/etc. forced them to write something. It's kinda funny listening to Moore as he describes very heated meetings with adults "arguing" what the warp core could or could not do. Man, I'd kill to be a fly on that wall. :-)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-11365139281658896472010-03-06T12:05:58.119-05:002010-03-06T12:05:58.119-05:00Individualist -- same problem. If you think of st...Individualist -- same problem. If you think of stories like computer programs, then Hollywood is big on inserting well known, very cliched subprograms. They often, don't even bother to try to blur the edges to make the whole thing seem even somewhat fresh.<br /><br /><br />Scott, I'd heard that, and I think it really was a problem for STNG. Not only did they always follow the same pattern in solving the problem, but you're right -- they forgot again the following week.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-1694992437961636732010-03-06T09:47:20.147-05:002010-03-06T09:47:20.147-05:00Indi -
In the audio commentary for Star Trek Gen...Indi - <br /><br />In the audio commentary for <i>Star Trek Generations</i> writers Ron Moore and Brannon Braga touch on that very thing.<br /><br />Moore says, "We would add the word TECH to the scripts but too often, the scripts would end with Picard saying, 'Geordi, TECH the TECH.' Geordi would say, 'Captain, I TECHed the TECH but it's not working, but if we TECH the TECH in a TECH direction, then maybe I could TECH the TECH.' And Picard would reply, 'Very well, Mr. LaForge. TECH the TECH.'"<br /><br />It started on TNG but got worse on Voyager. My problem was - and this doesn't apply just to Trek - every time someone on a TV show needs to improvise or jury-rig something, they always seem to forget how to do it a few episodes later when faced with the same crisis.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-77845357911091176502010-03-06T04:20:10.567-05:002010-03-06T04:20:10.567-05:00I read an article once about the predictability of...I read an article once about the predictability of certain science fiction stories in comics that I think relates here.<br /><br />Essentially the heros would have a problem requiring a technical solution and the teams tech would be stunped. This despite the fact that "reversing the polarity of something" always works.<br /><br />The problem would continue until someone other than the team technologist said "why don't you just reverse the polarity of something".<br /><br />The team tech would then respond in great surprize "that's so crazy, it just might work". This even though every problem can be solved by "reversing the polarity of something"<br /><br />Then the team tech would "reverse the polarity of something" and then wait in horrifying suspense even though "reversing the polarity of something" always works. Then at the last minute the problem would be solved.<br /><br />I am taking that this is the way you see many of the twists in Hollywood movies.Individualisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11005025873042230314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-84490972222135275912010-03-06T00:50:35.623-05:002010-03-06T00:50:35.623-05:00Scott - Mamet has a habit of casting his spouses i...Scott - Mamet has a habit of casting his spouses in his movies (e.g. House of Games, and Verdict for Lindsay Crouse as well as Winslow for Pidgeon. You are right though, it did verge on the edge of being too gimmicky, but was still fun.Tennessee Jedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10604275115906776992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-2564745517380961782010-03-06T00:25:43.357-05:002010-03-06T00:25:43.357-05:00Jed - funnily enough, I just saw Heist for the fir...Jed - funnily enough, I just saw <i>Heist</i> for the first time last week (thanks to Netflix Instant View). I liked it but there were so many twists, it was like, "Okay, we should be getting another twist... now."<br /><br />As for Rebecca Pidgeon, man, David Mamet is a lucky guy! (They're married.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-32249786863835596982010-03-06T00:16:11.652-05:002010-03-06T00:16:11.652-05:00Scott, It really was a shock when Empire came out....Scott, It really was a shock when <i>Empire</i> came out. I remember people trying to figure out if Vader was lying, etc. I think my jaw dropped when I first saw it. You could literally hear the theater gasp.<br /><br />Don't get me started on the prequels though. . . I could go on for days with my contempt for Lucas. I actually think he was jerking the audience around out of spite, because the rest of his films tanked.<br /><br />As for M. Night, I agree. The only one I truly didn't like was <i>The Happening</i>, though I felt that <i>Lady in the Water</i> was weak and <i>The Village</i> could have been so much better if he'd refocused it as either a horror story or a love story and dropped the twist.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-5215951244617459412010-03-06T00:10:13.090-05:002010-03-06T00:10:13.090-05:00Stan, That's ok, I'd rather have a lively ...Stan, That's ok, I'd rather have a lively conversation than everyone just saying "yep, sounds good."<br /><br />(P.S. If you don't like those examples, I've got a bazillion more. . . I counted. ;-))AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-62949902116072058652010-03-05T23:28:02.561-05:002010-03-05T23:28:02.561-05:00I think the movie Joel and Scott were trying to th...I think the movie Joel and Scott were trying to think of was the original Italian Job. Another Twist I actually enjoyed was David Mamet's movie Heist with Gene Hackman (almost always solid) and Rebecca Pidgeon.<br /><br />Also, in the spirit of earlier zesty argument, I would certainly agree with Andrew that one can credibly critique something without having done it. Maybe a couple of his examples were a tad misleading. I don't know if one actually needs to have split the atom to teach nuclear physics, or be a lawyer to teach the law, but it certainly it would help to have at least studied nuclear physics or the law to credibly teach either. Of course we aren't talking about either of those things here unless I missed something. (L.O.L I'm just jerkin' you around here Andrew, it was a fun post and lively discussion :-)Tennessee Jedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10604275115906776992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-86211973558454811202010-03-05T22:13:53.480-05:002010-03-05T22:13:53.480-05:00Well, I probably saw Empire for the first time in ...Well, I probably saw Empire for the first time in the early 90s (along with the other SW films) and by then I knew what the "twist" was since it had already been part of pop culture for a decade. I guess it worked for me. I feel bad for kids today who watch all six films in order, knowing everything in advance. But then again, knowing Lucas, I have to ask, "Okay, was that planned? Or did he create this backstory after the first film was a hit?"<br /><br />As for Unbreakable, I understood it in the context of the film, but in terms of realism... no. I think it strained credulity just a tad. :-) I like the film but I haven't seen it in a long time. I think Shyamalan has yet to top The Sixth Sense.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-18081997582981600522010-03-05T21:46:35.156-05:002010-03-05T21:46:35.156-05:00Joel, That's ok, I just don't want to go i...Joel, That's ok, I just don't want to go into detail about the movie -- it's too recent and I think many people likely haven't seen it yet.<br /><br /><br />Scott, I had the same thought -- better than <i>Da Vinci</i>, but a little too dark. I did think though, that if they had not tacted on the ending, they would have a very interesting ending.<br /><br />By the way, you never answered about <i>Empire</i> and <i>Unbreakable</i> -- what did you think?AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-46133412967212126772010-03-05T21:38:59.429-05:002010-03-05T21:38:59.429-05:00Andrew -
Yeah, the twist in Angels and Demons wa...Andrew - <br /><br />Yeah, the twist in <i>Angels and Demons</i> was kinda unnecessary. As for the film itself, I thought it was okay, but better than <i>The Da Vinci Code</i>.<br /><br />I haven't read the novels and any anti-Catholic content doesn't really bother me... but both films are just so dark and dour. They're not really that "fun" despite having an Indiana Jones vibe going on. And sadly, like most films today, neither is worth a second viewing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-42592398110156875532010-03-05T21:37:22.980-05:002010-03-05T21:37:22.980-05:00Andrew,
I am sorry. I did not see that movie. Par...Andrew,<br /><br />I am sorry. I did not see that movie. Partly because I didn't like The Davinci Code. I felt it was like National Treasure, only set in France and less well acted.Joel Farnhamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15856960977033430002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-90664350590218601892010-03-05T21:22:33.826-05:002010-03-05T21:22:33.826-05:00Joel, Angels and Demons. I don't want to go i...Joel, <i>Angels and Demons</i>. I don't want to go into detail, as I don't want to spoil it for anyone, but I thought the ending really violated the characters they had established and very much detracted from a movie that was otherwise surprisingly decent -- much better than I expected.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-34294130170238367132010-03-05T21:22:24.255-05:002010-03-05T21:22:24.255-05:00Andrew,
You are half-way there to writing a scree...Andrew,<br /><br />You are half-way there to writing a screenplay. :)<br /><br />Of course, you don't put words in the mouth of a character who won't use them. Not unless, you want a twist. :)Joel Farnhamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15856960977033430002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-51412373149674451692010-03-05T21:20:12.208-05:002010-03-05T21:20:12.208-05:00Joel, I think the words you use will depend on the...Joel, I think the words you use will depend on the characters and what they are doing. They need to sound like people will expect them to sound. For example, people expect bigger words from a judge hearing an appeal of a complex case than they would from two high schoolers drinking beers at a party -- though the judge would probably talk very differently at home.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-48670258627352914872010-03-05T21:16:36.891-05:002010-03-05T21:16:36.891-05:00Andrew,
What was the movie called?Andrew,<br /><br />What was the movie called?Joel Farnhamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15856960977033430002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-14707761070803356922010-03-05T21:15:24.080-05:002010-03-05T21:15:24.080-05:00Writer X, I agree completely -- it all begins with...Writer X, I agree completely -- it all begins with characters. It's rare that a plot can save a story with bad characters!<br /><br />Glad you liked the post. I was watching a movie the other night and it just struck me how tacked on the twist seemed.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-17160505117477685842010-03-05T20:49:50.868-05:002010-03-05T20:49:50.868-05:00I think that before you can get to believable, une...I think that before you can get to believable, unexpected twists, you first have to have sufficient character development which, of course, can extend throughout the life of the film. But if a person doesn't love/hate/understand your characters, it doesn't matter whether the plot (and the twists) are clever. <br /><br />Very interesting post, Andrew! I agree with you completely that if twists are forced (e.g. plot, plot, insert twist, plot, plot) the reader/viewer will be disappointed. And I hate it when I guess the endings in movies.Writer Xhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16505411188186283813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-61057044632774838702010-03-05T20:15:55.993-05:002010-03-05T20:15:55.993-05:00Andrew,
One more thing on the hypothetical screen...Andrew,<br /><br />One more thing on the hypothetical screenplay. Any word longer than two syllables throw out. Polysyllabic words will be rejected out right. The easiest way is to substitute the latin intestinal ones with the germanic gut style. :)Joel Farnhamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15856960977033430002noreply@blogger.com