tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post2654782174380795931..comments2023-09-15T04:27:57.129-04:00Comments on Commentarama: Michael Moore, Slavery AdvocateAndrewPricehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comBlogger45125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-34369735852672843082011-03-04T13:17:24.444-05:002011-03-04T13:17:24.444-05:00rlaWTX, Unfortunately, it doesn't take any bra...rlaWTX, Unfortunately, it doesn't take any brains, legal skill or judgment to be a judge these days -- all it takes is friends in the right places.<br /><br />As for taking these people seriously, I think fewer and fewer people are. I just like pointing out their stupidity because some people do actually take them seriously.... like the herd over at Huffpo!AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-27286090648111014452011-03-04T13:14:52.510-05:002011-03-04T13:14:52.510-05:00ACG, That's funny! LOL!
Moore is almost a cli...ACG, That's funny! LOL!<br /><br />Moore is almost a cliche of the "rich socialist," a total hypocrite who wants to destroy what everyone else has all in the name of letting him manipulate and play with humanity. He's despicable.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-78430088133390139002011-03-04T13:12:58.351-05:002011-03-04T13:12:58.351-05:00T_Rav, My mother's family escaped from East Ge...T_Rav, My mother's family escaped from East Germany as well. My grandfather was the head of surgery in a hospital in Dresden, which gave him a good deal of freedom, which he used to speak his mind. That meant he would periodically spend nights at the police station being questioned. My grandmother said she got to the point that she couldn't take it anymore, not knowing if he would come back or not, so they escaped.<br /><br />Then, when the wall came down, we went back over there to see what the place was like and it was stunning. It looked like a post-apocalypse Hollywood set.<br /><br />I always felt they should have left part of it as a living museum to socialism, because so many socialists try to pretend that everything is really great in places like that -- or Cuba.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-56375506849930314762011-03-04T13:05:04.519-05:002011-03-04T13:05:04.519-05:00why does anyone take him seriously?
same question...why does anyone take him seriously? <br />same question that I apply to C Sheen, H Chavez, M Khadaffy, J Carter, A Baldwin, & M Gibson. Oh and Gaga. <br /><br />unrelatedly, did you see the NRO write-up about the DC Judge's explanation why Obamacare was constitutional? I am adding her to my question above!rlaWTXhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09319344164726195144noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-64279801835307397462011-03-04T11:57:37.051-05:002011-03-04T11:57:37.051-05:00Never was there a more peaceful loving anti capita...Never was there a more peaceful loving anti capitalist who fed off the tit of rhetoric and capitalism in a sense of ultimate hypocrisy.<br /><br />My cup doth runnith over for prayers for Michael Moore. For it is written "Vengeance is Mine saith the Lord." <br /><br />I remember a prayer once told to me by a good friend. I will change the ending here to suit this subject.<br /><br />"Dear Lord, last year you took away my favorite singer and my favorite actor."<br /><br />"Dear Lord, my favorite fantasy documentary maker is Michael Moore."Game Master Rob Adamshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08198920658123610173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-49240427622776309682011-03-04T09:26:29.931-05:002011-03-04T09:26:29.931-05:00Andrew, would that they were all only desert mirag...Andrew, would that they were all only desert mirages (sigh)<br /><br />Of course, I'm a bit too young to remember Communism and the fall of the Berlin Wall, but I had several professors at my undergrad institution who had been to the East or, in the case of my two German professors, actually came from there. One of them told our class that he, his siblings, and their mother had fled to the West in the early '50s (she was in trouble with the government for not letting them wear the Communist uniforms to school), and when they crossed the border--this was outside Berlin--they came to a minefield, and their mother had everyone spread out with about ten yards between them, so that if one of them stepped on a mine, it would take out just that one person and not all of them. Any attempt to praise Communism has to fall on stories such as that.T_Ravnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-37791712036735546662011-03-04T01:26:59.366-05:002011-03-04T01:26:59.366-05:00T_Rav, I think there are two things going on.
Fir...T_Rav, I think there are two things going on.<br /><br />First, I've noticed that leftists put their faith in people rather than ideas. Thus, it's actually very easy for them to excuse the history of socialism by assuming that it just wasn't done by "the right person."<br /><br />Secondly, as you say, most people are just ignorant of history. Thus, they have no idea what socialism was really like, or they fall for propaganda like the idea that the Nazis were "right wing" when they are so clearly a socialist phenomena, or the idea that "communism has never really been tried." In that regard, I think your idea of a graphic and readable "history of socialism" would be (1) a HUGE hit and (2) a huge benefit for society at large.<br /><br />What I always thought was a shame was that everyone wasn't forced to visit East Germany. I went right after the wall came down and it was indescribable. The devastation was incredible. And then I came home and I ran into environmentalists who were claiming that capitalism is bad for the environment but socialism was good and they simply wouldn't believe the dead lakes, the rivers of white toxic foam floating on the rivers, the toxic air, the destroyed forrests and fields. You couldn't have done more damage if you set out to try to devastate the place.<br /><br /><br />I envision the set looking something like a cross between Miami Vice and The Miss America Pagent, only taking place in the middle of a desert. And the three of them could float just above the set as they take turns ranting about insane topics. I think we have a hit! ;-)AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-84172723495110808292011-03-04T00:45:14.249-05:002011-03-04T00:45:14.249-05:00Andrew, it's a matter of them being so blatant...Andrew, it's a matter of them being so blatantly unfamiliar with their own history. A few years ago, I would have doubted that Communism would ever make a comeback: It seemed to have been totally discredited and instead we would see something like "social democracy." But since Obama's election, I've been rethinking that--it seems like more and more people are unaware of what this is and what it has already led to. They're doomed to learn the same lessons over and over again. <br /><br />This is why I feel a general history of socialism needs to be produced. Not something that gets caught up in economic statistics or philosophical language; but something that traces its development, in terms which get the point across but are still accessible to everyone. There are a lot of good books about it already, but they don't seem to make much of an impact. <br /><br />P.S. Can you imagine what that kind of show would look like? I think the set would just rise up into the atmosphere suddenly with the force of all that hot air :-)T_Ravnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-67759455320270262822011-03-03T23:52:30.296-05:002011-03-03T23:52:30.296-05:00T-Rav, I agree with you. In general, an ideology ...T-Rav, I agree with you. In general, an ideology should be judged on its ideas rather than the personality of its founder, but sometimes the two are really very intertwined, like Nazism and Hitler. And I think Marx fits that bill as well. He was an all around hateful man, and his ideology reflects that.<br /><br />In terms of socialism, I agree. It's always the same impulse, it's just a matter of degree. What's particularly interesting to me, is that socialism has a history that is overwhelmingly and uncontradictedly a history of destruction (both of people and economies), yet socialists continue to believe in it.<br /><br /><br />P.S. I love the Charlie Sheen connection. "Two and a Half Nutjobs" might make for compelling viewing!AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-87801349040428476982011-03-03T23:40:01.680-05:002011-03-03T23:40:01.680-05:00Andrew, socialism has always been about coercion. ...Andrew, socialism has always been about coercion. The only thing that has ever changed is how much coercion socialists expect to need to use and at what point. No matter who happens to be the face of the movement at any given time, it's always the same. <br /><br />Not all the 19th-century socialist theorists were the same, personally speaking: some were better people than others, but Marx was the absolute worst. Besides being an anti-Semitic and violently racist, he was personally hateful, had no real friends besides Engels, cheated on his wife, etc. I know you shouldn't judge an ideology based only on the behavior of its founder, but I do believe one's personality provides some keys to one's philosophy. And when, despite being so famous during your lifetime, there are only about a dozen people at your funeral, counting you, that says something.T_Ravnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-82604788688625839012011-03-03T23:31:00.151-05:002011-03-03T23:31:00.151-05:003. Will Chavez, Gaddafi, and Charlie Sheen combine...3. Will Chavez, Gaddafi, and Charlie Sheen combine their zaniness into a new show, called "Two and a Half Nutjobs"?<br /><br />(Note: You decide which one is the "Half.")T_Ravnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-70815169877813502002011-03-03T23:11:08.967-05:002011-03-03T23:11:08.967-05:00Bev, The world is insane. But why not? In that s...Bev, The world is insane. But why not? In that spirit, here are my questions:<br /><br />1. Will they invite the rebels who clearly intend to usher in Gaddafi's retirement, or will Gaddafi and Hugo work it out for them?<br /><br />and<br /><br />2. With two snazzy dressers like Gaddafi and Hugo together for these talks, will Prince mediate?AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-66908694449128900642011-03-03T23:03:51.696-05:002011-03-03T23:03:51.696-05:00I know this is off topic, but Is it just me or doe...I know this is off topic, but Is it just me or does anyone else think the world has just turned topsy turvy now that Hugo Chavez and Muamar Ghaddaffi are aligning for "peace talks" to end the conflict in Libya? That's insane! I read that and had to laugh because it was such an absurd idea. But then again Libya was on the UN Human Rights Counsel...BevfromNYChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14953050916932306270noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-37622438436374949412011-03-03T21:51:37.522-05:002011-03-03T21:51:37.522-05:00T_Rav, It got ugly a couple times, but I wasn'...T_Rav, It got ugly a couple times, but I wasn't going to back down. I kept tripping up one law professor with his own quotes from prior cases, which was driving him insane. He really blew it when he decided to make a fool of me one day and I just twisted him all over the place. That's pretty embarassing for a professor to be out-argued by a student. Half the class actually applauded when he finally gave up.<br /><br />There were many more incidents in many classes. I'm one of those people who can be your best student if you're fair and capable, but your worst nightmare if you're trying to indoctrinate the class or fake your way through it.<br /><br />But of course, there is always a sizable portion of any group that believes that authority is always right, no matter what. So I know what you mean.<br /><br />Socialism is a rotten philosophy because it is premised on taking something that does not belong to you. And I've always found that the more ardent the socialist, the more violent they are because the more convinced they are that they are the good guys and the capitalists are bad guys.<br /><br />I've always found it truly strange that Marx was so deeply antiSemitic, but he's hardly unique. A big element of modern liberalism is "self-hate", with "self" being either the person's own race, culture, country, gender, etc. I don't pretend to understand it, but it seems to be a fairly common issue among the left. Maybe it's just familiarity breeding contempt combined with the mistaken ideal-ization of those we don't know?AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-20814519221646909612011-03-03T21:32:20.656-05:002011-03-03T21:32:20.656-05:00Heh, those must have been some interesting times i...Heh, those must have been some interesting times in the lecture hall. <br /><br />The trouble is, I feel things have gotten to the point (at least at this university) that it's the Marxists and their sympathizers who come off sounding reasonable and authoritative and those who try to set the record straight, student or TA, sound like they have an ax to grind. It shouldn't be that way, but it is, which is another in my long list of grievances against higher ed. <br /><br />As far as the old-school Commies go, Marx himself was violently anti-Semitic (highly ironic given that his family was not only originally Jewish, but once upon a time had included some prominent rabbis and theologians) and many of his cohorts were as well. The point you make about this violence and bloodthirstiness being inherent in the ideas is spot on, and raises a lot of issues with the general philosophy of Marx and the early history of European socialist movements--but that's probably best left to another day.T_Ravnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-42450840108621077772011-03-03T20:49:10.421-05:002011-03-03T20:49:10.421-05:00T_Rav, It's still good that you gave a few of ...T_Rav, It's still good that you gave a few of the facts that were "overlooked." Let's hope you opened a few minds.<br /><br />I found, going through school, that with the exception of the truly vocal leftist students, most of the students knew the deal with leftist professors and just nodded their heads like they were supposed to and then promptly forgot everything the professor tried to indoctrinate them with.<br /><br />I took the other approach and drove them insane. I had quite a few incidents where professors came to hate me. Good times.<br /><br />Yeah, everything I've ever read about the Marxists showed them to be really hate-filled, blood thirsty murders who were happy to exterminate whole populations to get their twisted ideas in place. It's no wonder that Marxism lent itself so easily to death camps, gulags, and purges.<br /><br />Of course, I would say that's implicit in the very foundation of the philosophy as well -- which is "I know what's good for everyone and you will all comply with my wishes." Leftists don't like to finish that thought because it's bad PR, but the only way to finish it is "and I will force you to comply or get rid of you."<br /><br />Interestingly, I also understand that despite many of the Marxists being Jewish, they were also deeply antiSemitic, which again lent itself to Nazism and communism quite nicely.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-64216394815186097692011-03-03T20:37:40.950-05:002011-03-03T20:37:40.950-05:00Don't worry Doc, I don't think I could sit...Don't worry Doc, I don't think I could sit through another Michael Moore fantasy.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-18046929856052055432011-03-03T20:34:52.221-05:002011-03-03T20:34:52.221-05:00Thanks Andrew! I don't engage in too much of t...Thanks Andrew! I don't engage in too much of that, because I don't feel it's my place to do so. But the professor was basically saying that Marx had a lot of good ideas, and that the Industrial Revolution proved how badly flawed capitalism and the free market was, and I felt I couldn't leave it there. I didn't say too much; I mainly pointed out the problems with Marxism and that Marx was a rather crummy individual. And most of the students agreed communism was bad in practice. <br /><br />As for the people pushing this stuff, many of them (including Marx himself) were extremely nasty in person where groups they didn't like were concerned. Marx even pushed it to the point of saying in his private writings that entire races (such as the Czechs) needed to be exterminated for being bourgeois or reactionary or something. With the founders of Communism spouting such things, it's no surprise the movement turned out the way it did.T_Ravnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-82543842781220294692011-03-03T20:31:44.605-05:002011-03-03T20:31:44.605-05:00I hate Michael Moore. Please do not ever review hi...I hate Michael Moore. Please do not ever review his "documentaries."Doc Whoahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16283308866886912377noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-79896964663133501692011-03-03T19:57:28.922-05:002011-03-03T19:57:28.922-05:00T-Rav, That's absolutely true and I stand corr...T-Rav, That's absolutely true and I stand corrected. If you just look at the pure theory from an economics standpoint (i.e. stripped down), it doesn't contain any of the nastiness, it's just very technical about about redistribution of "excess" wealth -- "economist speak".<br /><br />Of course, that automatically includes the idea of stealing the product of people's labor and making them slaves of the system. And of course, it doesn't work because it fails to account for people who become free riders... who presumably become economic criminals. So it is implicitly nasty, even if it's not explicitly so.<br /><br />But as you say, the theory itself as presented by most all Marxists (and certainly as implemented) is about class warfare and does treat the upper class as a thing to be exterminated or subjugated in the name of remaking society.<br /><br />In fact, I guess there is always a sense in Marxism (even the stripped down version) of remaking man into the new socialist man -- hence the need to destroy the past and break the human spirit.<br /><br />I'm glad to hear that you did your best to do a little "corrective thinking" with your class! Seriously! Bravo!<br /><br /><br />(I'll do a Star Trek take down next Wednesday.)AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-3629086593854713432011-03-03T19:44:04.221-05:002011-03-03T19:44:04.221-05:00Andrew, no biggie. The class I TA for had "Th...Andrew, no biggie. The class I TA for had "The Communist Manifesto" as its discussion reading for this week, and our professor was emphasizing how Marxism wasn't as horrible as it's often made out to be, something I then had to turn around and subtly knock down when talking to the students. So I've been a little fired up on the issue, which led to me hitting the "Submit" button too excitedly. <br /><br />But as to communism, I think it is a little more destructive than that, even on the theoretical level. Marx very clearly engages in the rhetoric of a life-or-death struggle between the bourgeoisie and the proletariat, and I think if you read closely, he's definitely advocating the physical destruction of the former if they stand in the latter's way. There were a number of committed Communists who talked about not just depriving the owners of their wealth but of physically exterminating them and their families, as though they were a race all their own. For non-Marxist communism, it's a little different, but the ideology is shot through with violence and coercion, even at its historical beginnings. <br /><br />I await the next Star Trek post.T_Ravnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-41099306572598942312011-03-03T19:28:43.875-05:002011-03-03T19:28:43.875-05:00P.S. Feel free to disagree. I'm happy to deb...P.S. Feel free to disagree. I'm happy to debate the issue... even though Star Trek the Motion Picture is coming on soon! LOL!<br /><br /><br />P.S.S. On the name things, I wish we had a way to edit posts, but Google hasn't advanced that far yet, and it probably will be a disaster when they finally do.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-7683445751479177992011-03-03T19:26:58.441-05:002011-03-03T19:26:58.441-05:00Anon ( or T-Rav, if that is your real name ;-) ),
...Anon ( or T-Rav, if that is your real name ;-) ),<br /><br />He's definitely spouting part of communism, the idea of redistributing wealth from those who have "too much" to those who "don't have enough." And he's certainly got the whole "workers of the world are exploited by the capitalists" thing going.<br /><br />So it's hard to say that he isn't spouting communism.<br /><br />But, I would say that he's being even less honest than communists in that he's only concerned with one half of the equation -- taking from those who have. In other words, rather than making everyone equal, he has singled out a group that he wants to destroy.<br /><br />Communism, in theory at least, isn't interested in destroying a class of people, just in making everyone equal -- though in practice, that's not how it ever works. What he's arguing is basically, pure robbery, taking from the rich and spreading it around, but not really doing anything else for the rest of society.<br /><br />So I'm not sure that's communism. I see it as closer to slavery than communism. I guess you could also call it "spiteocracy"?AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-8822319981715197762011-03-03T19:17:46.674-05:002011-03-03T19:17:46.674-05:00Whoops. That was me with Anonymous, I hit the thin...Whoops. That was me with Anonymous, I hit the thing too quickly.T_Ravnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-65908850157100435212011-03-03T19:17:14.518-05:002011-03-03T19:17:14.518-05:00Andrew, I would argue that what Moore's arguin...Andrew, I would argue that what Moore's arguing is communism. Remember Marx's dictum: "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need." What Moore is advocating here isn't so much slavery in the technical sense of the word (I would argue) as it is an attempt to equalize personal wealth by forcibly taking income from the upper class and giving it to the lower class. That's theoretical communism. Of course, he's also displaying real-world communism by demanding everyone do this except him and other members of the enlightened elite. Because hey, someone has to lead the masses out of ignorance and into utopia.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com