tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post4292762681314556892..comments2023-09-15T04:27:57.129-04:00Comments on Commentarama: Film Friday: The Spanish Prisoner (1997)AndrewPricehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-80668924196978107592011-03-28T21:36:22.377-04:002011-03-28T21:36:22.377-04:00Jed, I will definitely let you know what I think a...Jed, I will definitely let you know what I think after I watch it. You've given me a new perspective on it that I honestly hadn't thought of before (I got blinded by my first impression) and which might explain some of the things that bothered me.<br /><br />I don't know how or when the real FBI got involved. I assumed that Klein called them as part of his cover-up, but maybe they were already on the case long before that. So maybe it's just something we never get to see? I'm not sure, but I'll have to watch to see what I can figure out.<br /><br />I'm undecided on Lang. On the one hand, it seems like he could very easily have been part of this, but they didn't kill any of their members, so why kill him? Plus, he apparently has access to the process too -- or at least enough to be in the room with Joe. So if he was part of this, he probably could have just walked off with it himself? Hmm. I don't know. I'll have to see how much access he really has and what his relationship is with Klein.<br /><br />I'll check it out and let you know!AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-51893177582119688422011-03-28T16:29:54.567-04:002011-03-28T16:29:54.567-04:00Positively last comment by me until you have taken...Positively last comment by me until you have taken in another viewing. (lol)<br /><br />1) Klein and the others have to be working together and this is made clear at the end. If not, Klein has no way of getting his own hands on the process. I suppose we cannot be 100% sure of Lang's loyalties, but it still makes most sense that he was murdered to frame Joe and keep him from talking and helping Joe. Lang could have easily confirmed the existence of Martin at the island and helped buttress Joe's story. My only problem was how Joe immediately rushes in and gets Lang's blood all over him. (Stupid!)<br /><br />The only real issue to me is when did the Treasury Department tip off the real FBI? Given the time frame of events, they would almost have to have known about this one early on. By waiting, they ended up being partially responsible for not preventing Lang's murder. I suspect that is just one of those plot holes that can occur in something this complex, and it is better not to try and over-think it.<br /><br />Because this is my favorite genre, I had a hard time being totally objective. If not "great" pretty darned close. Perhaps most "under-rated." Anyway, after you have re-watched, let me know what you think! :-)Tennessee Jedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10604275115906776992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-46324558639938229422011-03-28T15:11:34.097-04:002011-03-28T15:11:34.097-04:00Jed, Thanks for the thoughts! You've raised s...Jed, Thanks for the thoughts! You've raised some interesting questions that I have to admit I never saw because I believed Klein and Martin to be separate thieves... though it makes a lot more sense if they are working together. Otherwise, the chance that Klein would hire Pidgeon and assign her to Joe and just happen to bring her along to the island meeting starts to seem a little more incredible than if they were working together.<br /><br />Good question whether she is Martin's boss or the other way around. I will have to pay particular attention to the airport scene where Joe sees her with McClure to see how that one plays out.<br /><br />Lang is an interesting question too. I was never sure if he was in on it or not. The first time through, I figured he wasn't. I thought he was killed because he was likely to help Joe out of this. But there really is no reason to kill him, as he can't do much of anything to really help Joe. So my next thought was that he was killed just to finish the frame up of Joe. But that too would rely on Joe going to him and grabbing the knife, etc. That's when I started to think that he might be involved in this as well. And the more I thought about it, the more I realized that he provide several key elements of the frame up, even though they seem like simple kindness when he does them. So I'm leaning toward him being part of it.<br /><br />I took the island meeting as being Klein and a group of investors, I'll watch more closely and see what develops.<br /><br />I would think Klein called the FBI once they had framed Joe. He knew he had to do something to through off suspicion and framing Joe would send the FBI in the wrong direction and help provide him with cover.<br /><br />The foreshadowing is definitely excellent and I think that's required to make a film like this work. The lessor "heist" films often have to hide the ball because their twist is so obvious or generic. But this one does it right by putting it all out there for you if only you can see it. I respect that greatly.<br /><br />You know, I'm getting really excited about seeing this again. Maybe I'll have to revise my opinion on its greatness? :-)AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-10436767974073619482011-03-28T14:48:14.676-04:002011-03-28T14:48:14.676-04:00Sorry to keep working this film, but I managed to ...Sorry to keep working this film, but I managed to get engaged in a "fresh look." There is no question this is a two pronged con. First the Spanish Prisoner con is designed to "steal" the formula. (this is why it isn't a "classic" S.P. where the mark willingly forks up something of value.) Second, it is then necessary to frame Joe in order to protect the real thief, Mr. Klein.<br /><br />I watched the first several scenes again and determined it is definitely a large conglomerate. The other people involved in the opening meeting were defintely senior officers (not board members), wheas Klein is definitely something like a profit center manager, possibly like a Sr. V.P. That whole Caribbean venture was expertly portrayed (since I lived in a congomerate corporate culture myself.)<br /><br />Nearly every scene is a foreshadowing of something later on (twice pictures of baggage x-rays at work, the sign "do not accept packages, security tapes, etc.") At least twice, mention is made of Japanese tourists. This is to foreshadow the possibility of the Japanese as the corporate thieves and set up the ending twist. Another is the repeated use of the term "boy scout" coupled with the scount knife used to murder of George Lang.<br /><br />Pidgeon, plays a typical clerical person brought along to make things run smoothly for the big shots. Her main job is to get Joe to believe she has a crush, and would be 100% loyal to him ("I'm loyal and not too hard to look at.") The con team feels he is such a straight arrow he will reject an "office romance" a necessary rejection to a smooth execution of the con. She also helps set up both Martin and Huffman's con. Much of her early dialog is devoted to that aspect.<br /><br />Left unexplained is when did the real FBI and Treasury Department become aware? There is some potential for inconsistency if one tries to determine that aspect too closely. I seriously doubt, they would have permitted Lang's murder if they had known Joe was the victim.<br /><br />Some of the lines you mentioned, in retrospect, became a little more reasoned with subsequent viewing. Yes, Lang is the "clever philosopher" trying to find a catchy way to say, I got drunk at the casino, feel like shit, but BTW, I won a small fortune. That little misdirection actually briefly makes you wonder if Lang isn't part of the scam as well. Martin's comment on money is to help sell the notion he is so rich he doesn't even need to care about money anymore.<br /><br />If you do re-watch, there is one question I wonder about. Is Pidgeon part of Martin's team or an outsider provided by Klein to manage them? She gives Martin the order to kill, Joe. That is one of those things that is interesting, but not crucial to the story.Tennessee Jedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10604275115906776992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-15003262645781855122011-03-27T23:16:57.758-04:002011-03-27T23:16:57.758-04:00Jed, Sadly, I can't insert spoiler warnings --...Jed, Sadly, I can't insert spoiler warnings -- Google doesn't give us that kind of power. But hopefully, people will know from the warning in the article that there could be spoilers here.<br /><br /><br />She was definitely cold blooded, look at the what happened at the airport. That's extremely cold blooded. Plus her "kill him" was said entirely without remorse or conscience.<br /><br />I hate to admit it, but I never put together that Gazzara wasn't the owner. I took it at face value when he says that "this was my retirement" and he implies that the company was entirely his. But you're right, he seems to say at the beginning that there is an owner or board and he has no say over what is going to happen.<br /><br />Ok, now I need to watch this again and look a little deeper. :-)AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-68357706492599333472011-03-27T22:31:42.693-04:002011-03-27T22:31:42.693-04:00Andrew - I should have put spoiler alerts on some ...Andrew - I should have put spoiler alerts on some of these last few comments we are having about this film. Maybe you can do so by inserting them above.<br /><br />Mr. Klein (Gazarra) is revealed as the villain at the very end of the movie. The "process" has been sold to the Swiss, and Martin's take alone is worth $100,000 million so the viewer finally understands just how enormous the stakes are. The use of Jaapanese U.S. Treasury agents is a device by Mamet for one last twist where Joe, and presumably the viewer, think that the two are actually working for the Japanese consortium. I do agree, having her (the tranquilizing dart shooter) use an American cowgirl accent, while intended as one last joke underscoring the "nobody is what they seem" theme, comes across as sort of corny or lame.<br /><br />The nature of Klein's job is skillfully used to help sew misdirection. I'd have to carefully review the opening meeting. Are these investors or buyers? What is the actual structure of the firm? The viewer is sort of given the impression that it is totally Klein's company. And yet, when Joe asks about his own share, Klein pleads that he has no control and is in the same boat himself. Since Klein is behind it all, however, there can be no doubt that he actually is only an employee (albeit a key one) who would gain vastly more money by "stealing" the process from the company and framing Joe than he would in compensation from "the company."<br /><br />The last dialog involving Susan and Joe underscores just how cold she really is. She completely gained his confidence, but let's him know it was merely a supreme acting job. She taunts him with irony as she asks if he can help her out, while she must fully realize there would be nothing he could do even if he chose to. To his credit, he gives it back to her in spades "You're going to have to stay in your room for a long time."Tennessee Jedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10604275115906776992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-54825545359778116202011-03-27T16:19:34.745-04:002011-03-27T16:19:34.745-04:00Jed, That's interesting, I'd never thought...Jed, That's interesting, I'd never thought that Gazzara hired Martin! I always thought Martin worked for the Japanese competitors and their job was to infiltrate and steal the process, and they saw Joe as the weak link.<br /><br />I'm going to have to take a look at this film again in depth. :-)AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-26693671905432209362011-03-27T15:45:11.593-04:002011-03-27T15:45:11.593-04:00Yes, "the boy scout" is the term she use...Yes, "the boy scout" is the term she uses. Interesting thought about Susan Ricci. I figured Gazarra hired Martin and his cracker jack "con" team. I thought her role was to throw herself at him. If that worked, they may have even used a totally different game than the "Spanish Prisoner." If not, she was really doing a semi-long con to get him to trust her and believe she would do virtually anything for him. She sets up the Huffman "con" by hinting "people are not what they seem." In the end, she comes across as very, very cold. Proving just how good a job she did in conning him. Almost a hint of craziness in there. Ha!Tennessee Jedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10604275115906776992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-59562902771853733142011-03-27T11:24:00.628-04:002011-03-27T11:24:00.628-04:00Jed, I couldn't agree more. If we all liked t...Jed, I couldn't agree more. If we all liked the exact same things, then there wouldn't be much point to art. And interestingly, one of the things I do enjoy a lot in films and books and the such is seeing something I thought I wouldn't like that I actually do end up liking a lot -- Steve Martin's performance for example. If you had asked me before this film "should we cast him?" I would have said no way unless you were remaking <i>The Jerk</i>. But this movie really opened my eyes to his ability and that was a real joy to watch.<br /><br />You might be right about Huffman, that she's not playing it 100% straight as an FBI agent, so maybe she's intentionally adding some "error" in her role?<br /><br />On Joe/Susan, I had an interesting thought last night. Although she does play the role of temptress, she actually comes at it from an odd perspective. Many of her comments indicate that she's trying to get him to play the White Knight, so much of what she says is aimed at trying to make him think that she needs rescuing. I need to go back and watch this again and see if maybe I've misinterpreted exactly what her role was?AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-92123725166658665112011-03-26T20:59:29.229-04:002011-03-26T20:59:29.229-04:00Nah, Andrew, I don't think we actually disagre...Nah, Andrew, I don't think we actually disagree so much. As you pointed out, the difference between great and good can comedown to nitpicking. Of course when one is detailing those nitpicks, they cannot help but come across as more important than perhaps they actually are. If they had really bothered you that much, you wouldn't have liked the movie as much as you do. I was just happy to have a chance to go back and see for myself while your thoughts were fresh, since it had been awhile. I was slightly surprised because I assumed they would bother me more now than originally. Happily, that didn't happen.<br /><br />As far as Huffman, don't forget she isn't playing an FBI agent; rather a con person playing an agent. No wonder she didn't get it exact :D As far as Pidgeon, yeah we probably disagree. I do find that many people actually speak flat and in one dimension. That was actually the first time I had seen her, and have to say I found her credible. Remember, Joe is not really attracted to her until she is his only ally and he has no where else to turn. Given he must be on emotional overload by this time, it is no wonder he finally kisses her.<br /><br />Of course, that disagreement is the beauty of the arts. We can talk about objective standards that might form the basis of why we like or don't like something, but in the end, there will always be a degree of subjectivity. It wouldn't be much fun if that wasn't the case.Tennessee Jedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10604275115906776992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-74898747673117094972011-03-26T17:42:23.039-04:002011-03-26T17:42:23.039-04:00(continued)
My issue with Huffman isn't that s...(continued)<br />My issue with Huffman isn't that she's a women, I've got no problem there -- in fact, Dana Scully on the <i>X-Files</i> was a very believable agent (so was Jody Foster in <i>Silence of the Lambs</i>). My issue was the way she played the part. She never struck me as someone who had gone through the kind of training the FBI requires. It's hard to put my finger on exactly, but she seemed too flippant about everything.<br /><br />Ed O'Neill, yeah, I couldn't stop seeing him as Al Bundy.<br /><br />In terms of the the Macguffin, I thought the blackboard scene itself was clever. But it just struck me that he keeps going back to it over and over, telling us that he won't tell us what the process is. To me, it felt like he kept saying "see, I don't have to tell you." That's a minor point, but combined with my thoughts on the rest, it all came together to feel like Mamet was playing around too much.<br /><br />I can see where you disagree and I suspect you're not alone. I can respect that. I'll check it out again a couple weeks and see if maybe I'm overstating this. But keep in mind, once again, I am not saying any of this made it a bad movie -- far from it. I'm just saying this is what kept it from creeping into the "great" category in my mind.<br /><br />(P.S. I really liked <i>Out of Sight</i>, but only because of the chemistry between Clooney and Lopez. The story itself was only ok.)AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-87585791020027759512011-03-26T17:42:19.732-04:002011-03-26T17:42:19.732-04:00Jed, Interesting. As with all movies, I think rea...Jed, Interesting. As with all movies, I think reasonable minds and tastes can differ.<br /><br />Let me stress again that I am not saying this was a bad movie, far from it. I just felt that these were flaws and the movie could have been better if they had been fixed. Clearly you disagree and I can respect that. :-)<br /><br />I agree with you about Martin's lines. He seems to be coming from a completely different world than Joe and so it fits that he says these kinds of strange things. I had a bigger problem with Pidgeon in particular, and just a sense an overall sense that too many people were using lines that felt scripted rather than natural. I can accept one "poet" among the characters, but too many starts to become unreal.<br /><br />My biggest issue with Pidgeon was that she was so flat and played one tone throughout. I never bought her as being able to attract Joe -- she strikes me as too strange for straightlaced guy like Joe to be interested, and indeed he seems to see her as an annoyance more than someone to lust after. And then later on, she seems too calm to be believable when Joe is in trouble, and finally too indifferent to her fate. I would think someone talented enough to be part of what is going on would be a better actor for Joe's sake. (Trying not to say too much.)<br /><br />(continued)AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-12926826688718384092011-03-26T16:57:08.074-04:002011-03-26T16:57:08.074-04:00Just had an interesting experience. The Lady Vols ...Just had an interesting experience. The Lady Vols vs. Buckeyes was too close for comfort so being superstitious, I pulled out The S.P. since it had probably been at least 5 years since the last screening. Armed with your review, and using English subtitles so I wouldn't miss any dialog, I came to the conclusion that the film was actually even better than remembered.<br /><br />1) The MacGuffin - you were really bothered by Mamet's not allowing us to know exactly what the process was and how much. I merely saw this a way of reinforcing it was highly technical, highly lucrative, and like any MacGuffin, details are unecessary anyway.<br /><br />2) The dialog - Most of the weird lines come from either Rebecca Pidgeon's or Steve Martin's characters. In Martin's case, the fact that he is this refined mysterious character lends to a certain amount of forgiveness. A person (in this case a con man) trying to come across that way.<br /><br />Rebecca Pidgeon - After this latest viewing, I am convinced, more than ever she did an excellent job in this role. Right out of the box, she pursues Joe. He is not a bad looking guy, but nerdy enough to not have a lot going on in that department. Some of her strangest lines, in retrospect, seem to be the kind of lines that might be construed as a smitten secretary trying to sound clever.<br /><br />Other casting - I think your problems with Ed O'Neill and Felicity Huffman might stem from their being so well known as other characters. Their acting was fine, to me. I would find it easy to believe in today's world, a female agent. In fact, the only thing that bothered me slightly about that whole exchange was that the con being used did not appear to fit the mold of a classic "Spanish Prisoner" con.<br /><br />This film lost out on the 1998 Edgar Award for screenplays to "Out of Sight" (Solderbergh's adaption of Leonard's novel.) I enjoyed that movie, but only saw it once, and didn't find it near as lasting as Spanish PrisonerTennessee Jedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10604275115906776992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-46139505530488077392011-03-26T15:19:27.761-04:002011-03-26T15:19:27.761-04:00Ed, LOL! Yeah, we'll see.Ed, LOL! Yeah, we'll see.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-68985163630908482662011-03-26T14:25:29.183-04:002011-03-26T14:25:29.183-04:00I'm glad to hear it! At some point, we should...I'm glad to hear it! At some point, we should send the links to Shapiro so he can learn something! Lol!Ednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-44621011020743651822011-03-25T23:22:59.726-04:002011-03-25T23:22:59.726-04:00Doc, I don't mind swearing either, but I know ...Doc, I don't mind swearing either, but I know what you mean about <i>Glengarry Glen Ross</i>. It really is over the top and I think he could have reduced it. But his dialog was effective.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-1655944827386113662011-03-25T23:20:51.001-04:002011-03-25T23:20:51.001-04:00Ed & T_Rav, I'll do it either next week or...Ed & T_Rav, I'll do it either next week or the week after. BS at Big Hollywood listed that one as overrated too. Grrrr.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-83460725268244476062011-03-25T23:18:17.943-04:002011-03-25T23:18:17.943-04:00Excellent review! I actually liked this better tha...Excellent review! I actually liked this better than Glengary because the swearing in that was so over the top. I normally don't care about swearing, but when every other word is "f***" it gets old fast. I vote for Pulp Fiction too.Doc Whoahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16283308866886912377noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-18143067901566333632011-03-25T22:17:49.206-04:002011-03-25T22:17:49.206-04:00I second Ed!I second Ed!T_Ravnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-20449567935089842972011-03-25T20:48:52.654-04:002011-03-25T20:48:52.654-04:00Here's a request, do "Pulp Fiction"!...Here's a request, do "Pulp Fiction"!Ednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-89080546528556651562011-03-25T18:49:48.980-04:002011-03-25T18:49:48.980-04:00Ed, Some of the reviewers used that word "sti...Ed, Some of the reviewers used that word "stilted." I don't quite go that far, I just think there are some problems with some of the lines that interfere with the rest of the dialog.<br /><br />I haven't thought about recasting, but I'll think about it.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-63843138035600540352011-03-25T18:30:44.825-04:002011-03-25T18:30:44.825-04:00I liked this film a lot, but like you I have a har...I liked this film a lot, but like you I have a hard time calling it "great". My problem is the characters feel a little stilted. I'd be up for a remake! Who have you got in mind to replace the actors? I'd hire Steve Martin and Ben Gazzara again. I like Joe too actually.Ednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-5241519145814039142011-03-25T18:06:20.838-04:002011-03-25T18:06:20.838-04:00T_Rav, Check it out, you'll like it. Despite ...T_Rav, Check it out, you'll like it. Despite my criticism, I definitely recommend this one.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-89438573907143923312011-03-25T18:03:36.896-04:002011-03-25T18:03:36.896-04:00I can honestly say, I have never seen or heard of ...I can honestly say, I have never seen or heard of this film. That's probably a bad thing. So...yeah, carry on.T_Ravnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-26927466159869724652011-03-25T17:31:40.148-04:002011-03-25T17:31:40.148-04:00Let me also add, for those who are afraid of Mamet...Let me also add, for those who are afraid of Mamet because his characters swear a LOT, this film doesn't do that. There is swearing, but it's nothing like his normal writing.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.com