tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post5214908170632377022..comments2023-09-15T04:27:57.129-04:00Comments on Commentarama: Are We Too Stupid For Democracy?AndrewPricehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comBlogger82125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-43176739488981844062012-03-07T13:40:44.410-05:002012-03-07T13:40:44.410-05:00Indi, No, it hasn't come through?Indi, No, it hasn't come through?AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-50005254307289527992012-03-07T13:27:29.894-05:002012-03-07T13:27:29.894-05:00Andrew
That's OK - did you get the second ver...Andrew<br /><br />That's OK - did you get the second version where I cut pages out of it. Not sure the eamil went throughIndividualisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11005025873042230314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-46784727892236901772012-03-06T17:01:59.591-05:002012-03-06T17:01:59.591-05:00rlaWTX, It's certainly possible there was more...rlaWTX, It's certainly possible there was more to the study and "pop psych" just ran with it. I know that happens. And I definitely agree that people generally lack the competence to spot experts. I've seen that over and over in my own profession where people not only can't distinguish between good and bad attorneys, but are actively drawn to the bad ones.<br /><br />But I do think beyond that fact, all of their conclusions are wrong. What they should have concluded if they wanted to be accurate is that individuals are unable to pick quality representatives when making the decision in a vacuum. But that's about it. Anything beyond that is pure politics rather than science. And even there, I think it's just a generalization which doesn't take into account dozens of other factors.<br /><br />Yeah, shocker isn't it that students who don't know what they are doing can't grade others. But on that point, I think they have vastly oversimplified the skill set used to determine who is good at grammar and who isn't, and they have basically used a tautology to reach the result they wanted. That's flawed science.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-2252696674258070492012-03-06T16:49:16.744-05:002012-03-06T16:49:16.744-05:00I couldn't find an article more recent than 20...I couldn't find an article more recent than 2005, but Dunning's past work is based on overconfident self-assessment. The one article that I read over made sense. Basically, people rate themselves higher than actual tests of performance results show. Everyone consistently rates themselves as above average. That research didn't go into how that goes along with not recognizing incompetency in others.<br /><br />So, based on what I've read, there is probably a sensible correlation between not seeing one's own incompetency and not recognizing (in)competency in others. <br /><br />However, I think that y'all have hit the nail on the head when it comes to our system of gov't - we aren't a democracy in order to avoid this exact situation. A multiplicity of opinions should result in a better choice than a single opinion. And the representational concept over straight democracy also avoids a single group overtaking the system.<br />And, without seeing their actual article, I agree that it sounds like they are turning their argument upside down by wanting "competent" people to make the choices - aren't those folks still likely not to see their own flaws or not recognize (in)competency in others?<br />I have a feeling that they drew the "elite" conclusion and pop psych liked it and ran with it... Adding John Cleese and a dig at Fox News helps their self-importance.<br /><br />from the Daily Mail article: "In one study, the researchers asked students to grade quizzes that tested for grammar skill. 'We found that students who had done worse on the test itself gave more inaccurate grades to other students.'"<br />Well, no kidding!!!!rlaWTXhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09319344164726195144noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-12524347345430536762012-03-06T16:09:49.445-05:002012-03-06T16:09:49.445-05:00You're welcome. Please let me know if anythin...You're welcome. Please let me know if anything strikes you differently. :)AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-5307305100997226852012-03-06T15:59:31.327-05:002012-03-06T15:59:31.327-05:00awesome! thanks!awesome! thanks!rlaWTXhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09319344164726195144noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-78182323136142594382012-03-06T15:11:06.285-05:002012-03-06T15:11:06.285-05:00rlaWTX, Here's the link to where I saw it: LI...rlaWTX, Here's the link to where I saw it: <a href="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2108345/Are-Americans-dumb-democracy-Scientists-claim-voters-lack-sophistication-recognize-good-ideas.html" rel="nofollow">LINK</a>AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-55727018217891000832012-03-06T15:07:31.132-05:002012-03-06T15:07:31.132-05:00[1] is there a link to the original article? I'...[1] is there a link to the original article? I'd be interested in seeing his "thought process".<br /><br />[2] Some one said that democracy (Representational gov't) is an awful system, but it's better than all the others. (Churchill?) Anyway, in that regard this guy's thesis is OK, but he doesn't seem t accept the second half of the above axiom. And y'all are correct, this type is usually one of those who think that they (or people like them) are smart enough to do it "right". But also correct is the fact that they forgot that none of those folks "like them' know enough individually either. So, it's not that the "right"folks make the "right" decisions, it's that the "right" folks make decisions that resemble HIS decisions!rlaWTXhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09319344164726195144noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-47136278887760225012012-03-06T14:01:11.497-05:002012-03-06T14:01:11.497-05:00darski, I mean democracy in the sense of letting t...darski, I mean democracy in the sense of letting the people decide, whether it's true democracy or representative, as compared to letting a small group of self-selected experts make decisions.<br /><br />To me, the argument Dunning makes is a strong argument for keeping power out of the hands of government, not for giving government more power, because the same things he complains about with "representative government" apply even worse to unrepresentative government.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-32005931743118958602012-03-06T13:59:13.568-05:002012-03-06T13:59:13.568-05:00tryanmax, The idea of narrowing due process or the...tryanmax, The idea of narrowing due process or the other rights in the Constitution is an interesting one which I doubt many people would accept. Personally, I'm in favor of anything that keeps the government from having power.<br /><br />In any event, you've raised some really interesting issues and I may hit those in a post soon. :)AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-14668001092541330922012-03-06T13:23:58.110-05:002012-03-06T13:23:58.110-05:00The problem is with (true) democracy. it is alway...The problem is with (true) democracy. it is always a transitional form of govt until Totalitarianism is installed.<br /><br />If you are using Democracy as a word for representational government... well we'll have to see what happens to that. Even in Canada under a monarchy we have representative govt. Need to go off and think about this for a bit. will browse the comments now and get back to you.darskinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-8242368459614634902012-03-06T01:18:37.219-05:002012-03-06T01:18:37.219-05:00Indi, That is thoroughly twisted... but it makes a...Indi, That is thoroughly twisted... but it makes a lot of sense. In fact, it completely reverses the morality argument, which is "people should be free to make their own choices" and presents it from the other end "people should be forced to bear the consequences of their actions."<br /><br />Fascinating!<br /><br />Of course, I would take issue with the idea that the wise dictator would be better, but it's still a fascinating interpretation of the morality of democracy. :)<br /><br /><br /><br />(p.s. Sorry I haven't gotten back to you about the draft, I've been really swamped.)AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-76761828256268046342012-03-06T01:12:57.803-05:002012-03-06T01:12:57.803-05:00I once read this in a dark scifi story that I foun...I once read this in a dark scifi story that I found intriguing. It was a monologue by a criminal type on democracy. To paraphase it stated:<br /><br />Democracy is not the best system, no it is the only system available. Somne say that the public is too stupid and lazy to decide correctly for themselves and they need a benevolent dictator to save them.<br /><br />I say why do a bunch of stupid lazy people deserve a wise dictator to save them from themselves. Democracy is the only system that is thinkable because it is the only one to ensure that people get exactly what they deserve.Individualisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11005025873042230314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-84672463231874354542012-03-06T00:36:17.280-05:002012-03-06T00:36:17.280-05:00T-Rav, A little massive cerebral hemorrhage now an...T-Rav, A little massive cerebral hemorrhage now and then might be a good thing? ;)AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-70696293926778064832012-03-06T00:33:52.302-05:002012-03-06T00:33:52.302-05:00Ah... fraction as is less than the whole.Ah... fraction as is less than the whole.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-86276767642375378542012-03-06T00:33:47.672-05:002012-03-06T00:33:47.672-05:00Andrew, I foresee a massive cerebral hemorrhage. I...Andrew, I foresee a massive cerebral hemorrhage. I'm just not sure whether that's a bad thing at this stage.T-Ravhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10861218035729479354noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-3408306826735105972012-03-06T00:33:09.321-05:002012-03-06T00:33:09.321-05:00tryanmax, The brain in the jar isn't my creati...tryanmax, The brain in the jar isn't my creation, but I liked it too when I saw it. I think it fits the article quite nicely.<br /><br />You've raised many issues and sadly my free-range brain is not equipped to handle them at the moment -- too tired. So I'll have to get back to you in the morning on those.<br /><br />Good luck with the move!AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-158736432254713692012-03-06T00:30:35.422-05:002012-03-06T00:30:35.422-05:00P.S. When thinking of the word "fractal"...P.S. When thinking of the word "fractal" it shouldn't be associated with "fracture" or "fragment" so much as it should be associated with "fraction." Maybe that will help.tryanmaxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09881154741574720094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-89153738116641331302012-03-06T00:27:58.520-05:002012-03-06T00:27:58.520-05:00BTW, I love the brain-in-a-jar pic!BTW, I love the brain-in-a-jar pic!tryanmaxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09881154741574720094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-36411948832441381442012-03-06T00:25:42.106-05:002012-03-06T00:25:42.106-05:00Sorry to keep everybody hanging. I'm moving ne...Sorry to keep everybody hanging. I'm moving next weekend and making preparations ahead. <br /><br />"Fractal democracy" is not really a redesign. It's just federalism by another name. It simply is the concept laid out by our founders. The Constitution only covers the federal level so it's up to the more local levels to determine what they emulate and what they do differently. Ideally, each step further away from the federal level and closer to the local has more authority and autonomy. I believe the due process clause of the 14th amendment has been interpreted too broadly, thereby hindering this order somewhat. <br /><br />So I guess the argument I am trying to forward is that, given the prevalence of fractals in nature, federalism of some sort is the most natural form of human government. Any resistance to that natural form will inevitably lead to breakdown. <br /><br />So, in response to DUQ's question, the example I would use is our own system of government if it were properly realized. In order to return to such a state, I believe that the 17th amendment needs to be repealed, and probably the 16th if not others, as well as a narrower understanding of "due process," so there is an uphill climb. <br /><br />As to the IRS, I suppose I am suggesting an overhaul at least. What that would look like, I am at a loss to say. Suffice it to say, the original Constitution scarcely addresses how the government ought to raise revenues. <br /><br />Try not to let your brain swell too much, guys. I'm really just advocating for civics 101 but using a scientific justification.tryanmaxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09881154741574720094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-32376273927564335632012-03-05T21:00:24.504-05:002012-03-05T21:00:24.504-05:00T-Rav, I know the feeling. tryanmax has been maki...T-Rav, I know the feeling. tryanmax has been making my brain swell trying to think through all of this!<br /><br />I hope you're ready for tomorrow night! :)AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-34498495991127638812012-03-05T20:58:20.140-05:002012-03-05T20:58:20.140-05:00I fell behind a while ago. So I'll just limit ...I fell behind a while ago. So I'll just limit myself to the observation that the only economic plan Obama and his liberal buddies seem to understand is a pyramid scheme.T-Ravhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10861218035729479354noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-10388857709801657182012-03-05T20:52:49.797-05:002012-03-05T20:52:49.797-05:00DUQ, I'll take a stab at it, and tryanmax can ...DUQ, I'll take a stab at it, and tryanmax can tell me if I'm wrong.<br /><br />It would be like having an IRS auditor, who reports to an attorney in a separate agency, who then lets another attorney try the case. Each person along the way would have a different set of goals. For example, the auditor's job might be to find the money. The first attorney to make sure a valid legal case is made. And the final attorney would only accept the case if it could be won at trial. That way, each person along the line would essentially act as a check on the prior person.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-16332821595858437392012-03-05T20:49:10.940-05:002012-03-05T20:49:10.940-05:00Ed, I like to think of Satan as more competent tha...Ed, I like to think of Satan as more competent than Obama, but that's just me.AndrewPricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-11789090644213605712012-03-05T20:08:17.234-05:002012-03-05T20:08:17.234-05:00tryanmax, Sorry to keep going back to this, but ca...tryanmax, Sorry to keep going back to this, but can you give an example of this would work?DUQnoreply@blogger.com