tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post8002463161565946044..comments2023-09-15T04:27:57.129-04:00Comments on Commentarama: Fireman, Save My ChildAndrewPricehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11312364467936820986noreply@blogger.comBlogger45125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-38899013599554430492012-07-18T12:30:53.474-04:002012-07-18T12:30:53.474-04:00rlaWTX: You racists are all alike. LOLrlaWTX: You racists are all alike. LOLLawHawkRFDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17800255923675295515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-19123125737683332142012-07-18T10:27:48.259-04:002012-07-18T10:27:48.259-04:00"There are no underqualified firemen, only qu..."There are no underqualified firemen, only qualified firemen who have been discriminated against. "<br />Hawk, thank you for correcting my discriminatory POV that must be the result of white privilege. I will attempt to maintain the proper orientation toward this subject matter.rlaWTXhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09319344164726195144noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-72304248029664617592012-07-18T00:47:40.683-04:002012-07-18T00:47:40.683-04:00Indi: I meant to add that this only leaves dumbed...Indi: I meant to add that this only leaves dumbed-down standards and employment by quota instead of by merit. Don't raise up minority knowledge and abilities to the level of true competition, bring down the overall standards, then skew them with artificial racial standards.LawHawkRFDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17800255923675295515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-76068341012116231712012-07-18T00:38:06.188-04:002012-07-18T00:38:06.188-04:00Indi: You are absolutely right. And this self-de...Indi: You are absolutely right. And this self-deception includes crime rates. Unfortunately, for every Thomas Sowell there are a dozen Al Sharptons and a score of guilt-ridden white liberals. Any community which will not police itself is unlikely to benefit in any meaningful way from outside policing.LawHawkRFDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17800255923675295515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-84485858172172552822012-07-18T00:06:46.056-04:002012-07-18T00:06:46.056-04:00Lawhawk
This is what really pisses me off about l...Lawhawk<br /><br />This is what really pisses me off about leftists.<br /><br />Instead of asking the question why is it that the majority of minority applicants can only answer 26 out of 100 questions on a test and what can we do to help improve education and work related training ofr these people now and in the schools where they are obviously failing to be taught we do this nonsense.<br /><br />We sit around playing games pretending people have the skills needed for the job. A job by the way where incompetence can end up being fatal to that individual. Why! Because we are self absorbed weak minded fools that worry about how we look to our friends in a cocktail party than doing what is right.<br /><br />IF you are upset that 42% of minoritities are below the poverty line and are not being educated to a level ehre they have basic literacy handled then by God go into these schools are start teaching people to read. Something you can do for everyone there without having to inventory the amount of melanin in their dermis.Individualisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11005025873042230314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-35262152282826865892012-07-17T18:08:43.213-04:002012-07-17T18:08:43.213-04:00rlaWTX: I just realized something. There are no ...rlaWTX: I just realized something. There are no underqualified firemen, only qualified firemen who have been discriminated against. We gotta get with the program.LawHawkRFDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17800255923675295515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-18410501449250709832012-07-17T16:13:53.428-04:002012-07-17T16:13:53.428-04:00tryanmax: Don't I know it. Just try building...tryanmax: Don't I know it. Just try building a garden fence in California.<br /><br />Some years back, I installed a gas barbecue in my back yard. It required me to run gas pipes from the side of my house to the barbecue, a distance of about fifty feet, around a corner and under a sidewalk. Three times the county inspector came out, and three times the pipes failed the required pressure test. I tore everything up and started over each time. A lot of work for self-performed home improvement. After the third time, I got both frustrated and angry, so I went out and rented a pressure gauge. I was well within safety guidelines. Turns out the inspector was using a defective pressure gauge. Thank God I did the work myself and didn't hire a contractor to re-do work that was just fine the first time.LawHawkRFDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17800255923675295515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-8910559526485402672012-07-17T16:08:39.154-04:002012-07-17T16:08:39.154-04:00rlaWTX: And while we're at it, they should be...rlaWTX: And while we're at it, they should be chosen from the current list of suspected arsonists.LawHawkRFDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17800255923675295515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-6582855382582386972012-07-17T16:07:32.875-04:002012-07-17T16:07:32.875-04:00Anthony: I meant to vet one of the DOJ's argu...Anthony: I meant to vet one of the DOJ's arguments from the earlier cases which you mention in your post. ". . . unfairly biased in favor of white applicants who may have had a better education or been more accustomed to standardized testing than their minority counterparts." First of all, the test has been repeatedly revised to address those issues as DOJ requested and Garaufis has ordered. It made next to no difference. Second, whose fault is it that any of those allegations are true? The white and Hispanic applicants largely wanted to be fireman long before they applied and likely while they were still in school. The white and Hispanic applicants are not conveniently college-prep students preparing for the SATs while the blacks have been denied equal access. Most attended the same miserable public schools and followed the same curricula. It's a red herring. Third, the Hispanic applicants were far more successful than the black applicants, though many of them weren't native English speakers. These are all excuses for poor performance not explanations for the disparate impact. How far does the FDNY have to dumb its written test down before it becomes "See Dick run," a <i>reductio ad absurdum</i>? These are issues that the <i>Ricci</i> case specifically addressed and resolved. <br /><br />Garaufis is simply ignoring that fact. He issued his current ruling on July 5, 2012, almost three years after <i>Ricci</i>. His ruling relies on his own past rulings with nearly zero respect for the Supreme Court decision which he has had three years to digest.<br /><br />One exception to ruling solely on the briefs and arguments as presented at the hearing is an intervening Supreme Court decision. <i>Ricci</i> was a landmark intervening decision.LawHawkRFDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17800255923675295515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-80218549598484793632012-07-17T15:50:35.933-04:002012-07-17T15:50:35.933-04:00Hawk, I spent my morning on the phone with various...Hawk, I spent my morning on the phone with various government agencies and bureaucrats. Nothing seems funny anymore.tryanmaxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09881154741574720094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-9798128700256945382012-07-17T15:42:27.931-04:002012-07-17T15:42:27.931-04:00can we have the "underqualified" firemen...can we have the "underqualified" firemen protect the judge's neighborhood?rlaWTXhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09319344164726195144noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-74019719716591207982012-07-17T15:33:00.112-04:002012-07-17T15:33:00.112-04:00T-Rav: That may very well be true, but I want to ...T-Rav: That may very well be true, but I want to see a few more decisions before I make up my mind. There are some who think he did it solely to get Obamacare back into the political arena. But that would be a political decision in and of itself, and I don't want justices making decisions on political considerations even when I agree with the politics.LawHawkRFDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17800255923675295515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-57661813712093120332012-07-17T15:23:29.229-04:002012-07-17T15:23:29.229-04:00LawHawk, I read the Roberts decision as him just b...LawHawk, I read the Roberts decision as him just being swayed by political considerations and talking himself into the "go along to get along" decision. That doesn't necessarily make him a liberal, but it does reveal him as a member of the Beltway crowd.T-Ravhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10861218035729479354noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-88775646804769909032012-07-17T14:22:08.087-04:002012-07-17T14:22:08.087-04:00tryanmax: I actually was attempting to be humorou...tryanmax: I actually was attempting to be humorous. Slippery slope arguments have been misused frequently, but that doesn't mean the principle is wrong, as you pointed out.LawHawkRFDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17800255923675295515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-32662928871680444422012-07-17T14:18:22.712-04:002012-07-17T14:18:22.712-04:00LawHawk, as it was explained to me, the "Slip...LawHawk, as it was explained to me, the "Slippery Slope" can be a completely sound logical argument--not a fallacy at all, despite contrary claims--so long as the length of the slope is appropriate to the argument. The general rule is that the strength of the argument is inverse to the length of the slope. Of course, in NYC the slopes more closely resemble water park slides, so there's no telling how crazy things will get on the way down.tryanmaxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09881154741574720094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-11529461843383392092012-07-17T13:32:21.953-04:002012-07-17T13:32:21.953-04:00Anthony: This is an ongoing battle. The case you...Anthony: This is an ongoing battle. The case you're referring to is one of the decisions this judge issued previously and on which he bootstrapped in the current decision. The cases will likely be consolidated, in which case the judge's prejudices will become even more apparent. It would have been great if he had simply proposed his own "non-discriminatory" written exam in the current opinion so the Supreme Court would have a clear issue to rule on. Instead, he just declares the exams "discriminatory" without specifying what is discriminatory about them other than the disparate impact.LawHawkRFDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17800255923675295515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-89162766644459132692012-07-17T13:27:06.294-04:002012-07-17T13:27:06.294-04:00Shawn: LOL And well-said. People today tend to ...Shawn: LOL And well-said. People today tend to use the word "discrimination" as a substitute for "prejudice." It's a compliment to say that someone has a discriminating palate, but an insult to say that the same person discriminates.LawHawkRFDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17800255923675295515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-14213340810523228212012-07-17T13:23:31.490-04:002012-07-17T13:23:31.490-04:00Bev: That makes sense. There are always advocate...Bev: That makes sense. There are always advocates for people who didn't ask for advocates. It's the nature of do-gooders and leftists. This judge made a blanket ruling solely on minority disparate impact. What was interesting is that in <i>Ricci</i>, successful applicants of Hispanic background who were denied promotion in favor of less-qualified blacks were among the plaintiffs. In the current FDNY case, the judge seems to have added Hispanics to the quota list almost solely to keep them out of the future litigation.LawHawkRFDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17800255923675295515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-58298289670349137262012-07-17T13:19:18.260-04:002012-07-17T13:19:18.260-04:00Kit: Yes, FDNY will appeal the decision.Kit: Yes, FDNY will appeal the decision.LawHawkRFDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17800255923675295515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-64821674405399758342012-07-17T13:18:01.809-04:002012-07-17T13:18:01.809-04:00K: I don't read "evolving liberal" ...K: I don't read "evolving liberal" into Roberts' decision on Obamacare. At least not yet. I think he made a huge, terrible mistake, but I don't see it as Roberts becoming the new Blackmun. If I'm wrong, we're in for real trouble down the road.<br /><br />As for the FDNY decision, if it reaches the Supreme Court (which is quite likely), I think Roberts will stick with his original reasoning in <i>Ricci</i>, as will Sotomayor. The reversal in <i>Ricci</i> was 9-0, but the opinion was the usual 5-4 split on the issues.LawHawkRFDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17800255923675295515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-69104477781041903512012-07-17T13:04:21.403-04:002012-07-17T13:04:21.403-04:00T-Rav: The truism involved is that we are product...T-Rav: The truism involved is that we are products of our environment. Some rise above it, most don't. I'm a believer in redemption, but it doesn't genuinely happen very often. Age has very little to do with it, though I must admit that I can see where a young teenager could commit a singular violent act though he had no prior history of violence and little potential for future violence. That simply isn't addressed in the much broader decision that holds that all violent teenagers are redeemable and therefore should never be subject to the death penalty.LawHawkRFDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17800255923675295515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-56959577733294295682012-07-17T12:58:36.355-04:002012-07-17T12:58:36.355-04:00Kit: You're referring to the Ricci case, whic...Kit: You're referring to the <i>Ricci</i> case, which I covered in the article. This is one of those cases that I've talked about where the surrounding facts seem different but the principle is identical. <i>Ricci</i> was a "reverse discrimination" case, in which white firefighters who scored higher than minority firefighters on written exams were denied promotion in order to give the promotions to minority applicants to satisfy racial quotas. The Supreme Court found that there was indeed a disparate impact, BUT also found that the impact was both unintentional and based on rational standards. Disparate impact by itself is no longer sufficient reason to impose racial quotas, a fact this judge missed. And just as a fun historical note, the case totally and pointedly reversed the decision of Appeals Court Judge Sonia Sotomayor, now a Supreme Court Justice appointed by Obama. Even Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg weighed in on just how idiotic Sotomayor's legal reasoning had been in the lower court ruling.LawHawkRFDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17800255923675295515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-49844678426203406212012-07-17T12:47:14.067-04:002012-07-17T12:47:14.067-04:00I found an article which indicated that the appeal...I found an article which indicated that the appeal has already happened (it happened in June, over two years after the judge's decision, which was handed down in January of 2010).<br /><br />----------<br />http://www.businessweek.com/ap/2012-06-27/3-judges-hear-landmark-fdny-discrimination-case<br /><br />In a courtroom packed with several hundred spectators, city attorney Deborah Brenner urged the 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals panel in Manhattan to return the case to a different judge in Brooklyn federal court for a trial. The court was unlikely to rule for several months.<br />-------<br />And I found another article which detailed the city's actions in response to the ruling.<br />------<br /><br />http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/09/nyregion/new-york-fire-department-gains-minority-and-female-applicants.html<br /><br />The Justice Department sued the department in 2007, charging that its exam used questions that were unfairly biased in favor of white applicants who may have had a better education or been more accustomed to standardized testing than their minority counterparts. <br /><br />The firefighter exam is administered every three or four years. The Justice Department filed its lawsuit a few months after the last testing period, starting a long and sometimes contentious legal process between the city and the judge overseeing the case, Nicholas G. Garaufis of Federal District Court in Brooklyn. <br /><br />Judge Garaufis ruled that the 2007 exam was discriminatory and banned the city from hiring firefighters unless it adhered to a hiring method he proposed. The city rejected the judge’s proposal, saying it amounted to creating racial quotas. <br /><br />As a result, the city declined to hire any new firefighters, which has led to some understaffing. The department is short about 500 firefighters, which has cost it roughly $41 million in overtime pay for current firefighters and other related expenses since the 2010 fiscal year, a deputy fire commissioner, Francis X. Gribbon, said. Fire officials expect to hire as many as 3,500 firefighters over a four-year period starting next spring.Anthonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16124128949343301445noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-49106328039880408942012-07-17T12:40:27.197-04:002012-07-17T12:40:27.197-04:00Tehachapi Tom: The judge is very intelligent, but...Tehachapi Tom: The judge is very intelligent, but he isn't very smart. His ruling is based on the rules pre-<i>Ricci</i>, and he expressed his own personal prejudices against the FDNY and "white privilege" in the decision. I see the possibilities of reversal on grounds of prejudice alone as quite good. And given the findings and opinions in <i>Ricci</i>, I find the possibility of success of an appeal on the law to be excellent.LawHawkRFDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17800255923675295515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4425587034622601550.post-61399193326674500042012-07-17T12:35:30.625-04:002012-07-17T12:35:30.625-04:00Andrew: As a general rule, the way the damages we...Andrew: As a general rule, the way the damages were assessed is not atypical. But this judge went far beyond the usual damages in every category, largely out of personal pique. This same judge issued three similar rulings before <i>Ricci</i> was decided. Each was more draconian than the one before it. He has a personal beef with the FDNY. FDNY complied with all his prior orders, revised the written tests within his guidelines, and the results remained pretty much the same. So instead of accepting the findings in <i>Ricci</i>, he simply bootstrapped on his own prior rulings, and decided the current case without considering the disparate impact factors set out in <i>Ricci</i>. This is a rogue judge with a personal grudge and a political agenda. He is determined to impose quotas, with or without the Supreme Court.LawHawkRFDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17800255923675295515noreply@blogger.com