Saturday, January 8, 2011

Gabrielle Giffords Shooting

The shooting of Democratic Representative Gabrielle Giffords has shocked the nation, and rightly so. And while we don’t know much yet, there are some things that are worth pointing out immediately. Here are some random thoughts:

First, it does not matter what Giffords politics are, the shooting of a public official is a tragedy. Murder is simply not acceptable in America for any reason, no matter who the person is, and we should all be outraged that anyone would take such actions.

Secondly, Speaker Boehner has issued the following statement:

“I am horrified by the senseless attack on Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords and members of her staff. An attack on one who serves is an attack on all who serve. Acts and threats of violence against public officials have no place in our society. Our prayers are with Congresswoman Giffords, her staff, all who were injured, and their families. This is a sad day for our country."
I would like to second Boehner’s statement, as I’m sure we all would.

Third, let us be thankful that political murders are so rare in the United States. By comparison, in places like Mexico, the Philippines, and South America, political murders are common place, even at the highest level.

Finally, let us be careful about calling this “politically motivated.” Such claims imply the existence of a political movement that has adopted violence. Aside from a few environmental terrorist groups, there is no evidence of any group in America that currently has chosen violence as a way to get its “message” across. Indeed, almost without exception, the murder of politicians in America has been the work of insane individuals, and their actions should not be attributed to any political movement or ideology.

And while our television culture unfortunately demands immediate speculation about motive and blame, let us remember two things. The blame falls squarely on the man who pulled the trigger and any who helped, no one else. America does not do guilt by association. Secondly, the motives do not matter. This act was wrong no matter what the motives were, and we should not give publicity to the views of this killer nor should we give them any credence.

Our thoughts and prayers are with Representative Giffords and with our country.

71 comments:

BevfromNYC said...

Thank you Andrew. I completely agree. Prays to all the families.

AndrewPrice said...

Thanks Bev. This really is shocking and tragic.

Vigilante said...

Is this not a smoking gun for concealed carry? & and especially at political Rallies?

T_Rav said...

Andrew, should you get word of this from anyone else, there was speculation on the Breitbart threads an hour or two ago that some Daily Kos nuts were tied to this, because of what a disillusioned blogger in her district had to say about her. Daily Kos has already yanked the site, but I checked it out myself, and I don't think there's anything in it. He said "She's dead to me," not that he wished death upon her, and for what's it worth, he added an update that in light of what's happened, that was a poor choice of words and he felt guilty about it. I only bring it up because some on our side of the spectrum can get into histrionics as well, so if anyone should pass the info along to you, it's almost certainly unrelated.

BevfromNYC said...

Vigilante - This isn't the time. Now is time to send good thoughts to the families of the victims and especially to Rep. Gifford who is surgery in serious condition.

AndrewPrice said...

T-Rav, I honestly don't care who's behind it. It doesn't matter because he doesn't represent anyone in this. He is a lunatic and his decision to kill her was his own decision.

Now if it can be shown that he's part of a group that has decided to start killing people to get their point across, like an al Qaeda or an IRA, or the anarchists of the 1990s, then I would agree -- those groups should be held responsible. But without that, it doesn't matter to me if he was a leftist, a rightist, or if he killed her because he was a Dallas Cowboy's fan.

That's something that bothers me about this. As Americans, we should not hold groups of people responsible for the actions of individuals, and the speculation about whether he was left or right or whatnot, just plays into the idea that somehow a particular ideology bears responsibility for this. I think that's wrong. I think that's exploiting a tragedy.

(P.S. I don't mean you as I know that you are much more responsible than that, I just mean in general.)

AndrewPrice said...

Vigilante and Bev, I agree with Bev, this is not the time to try to work politics into this discussion. There may be things that could or should have been done different, or there may not. But now is not the time to talk about that.

BevfromNYC said...

Andrew - it's this "gotcha" mentality we as Americans keep getting stuck in and that keeps dividing us. You are absolutely correct that it doesn't matter WHO did this, it's wrong on every level. And the fact that it was female Congressperson just makes it even more shocking.

As we have pointed out many times here - Crazy only needs a cause and any cause will do.

I haven't turned on the tv today, but I hope that Pres. Obama will make a public statement like Boehner made and try to bring some calm and reflection and quell the overheated speculation.

T_Rav said...

Andrew, I agree with you. I was just clarifying what I knew of that matter, should anyone try to make an issue of it.

Giffords is now reported to be in serious condition but out of surgery and is tentatively expected to pull through. According to hospital spokesmen, she was shot in the temple but the bullet exited without doing any vital damage. On the minus side, Federal Judge John Roll, appointed by George H. W. Bush, has been confirmed dead by Fox. Is it possible he was the actual target? (I know, I know, save it for later.) Also, the gunman has been identified as 22-year-old Jared Laughner. Haven't heard anything about a motive.

Vigilante said...

Andrew, when will be the time to address the issue of open or conceal carry at political rallies? Tell me. I want to be present when you feel that time has arrived. Personally, I think that time has come and gone.

T_Rav said...

Bev, here's the statement from Obama via the AP:

"This morning, in an unspeakable tragedy, a number of Americans were shot in Tucson, Arizona, at a constituent meeting with Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords. And while we are continuing to receive information, we know that some have passed away, and that Representative Giffords is gravely wounded.

"We do not yet have all the answers. What we do know is that such a senseless and terrible act of violence has no place in a free society. I ask all Americans to join me and Michelle in keeping Representative Giffords, the victims of this tragedy, and their families in our prayers."

AndrewPrice said...

Vigilante, I think that's an issue that has been discussed by many people over the years and continues to be discussed every day in this country.

The problem, in my opinion, is that it's exploitive to try to latch onto a tragedy like this when the emotions are still raw (and even before we know what actually happened) and to try to score political points on this.

It's the same if the left jumped on this and tried to turn this into an argument for gun control or if the right tries to turn this into an argument for concealed carrying.

If you have a valid argument, then you don't need to exploit a tragedy to make your point.

And for the record, I favor concealed carry permits 100%.

LawHawkRFD said...

Vigilante: The appropriate time would be after the families have been comforted and the dead buried and memorialized. It would also be good to wait for complete information before drawing any conclusions. I carry concealed and am a very active advocate for Second Amendment rights. There is a time and place for everything, and this is neither. I expect left wingers to come out with anti-gun statements immediately. That's exploitive, and I would hope we're better than that.

Vigilante said...

Fine Andrew. You are on the record for favoring an standing unregulated militia. Thanks for clearly stating your position.

Tam said...

Shep just read the text from the suspect's youtube video. Not shockingly, he comes across as a nutjob. Whatever his political incliniations, he is a sorry, sick bastard.

Joel Farnham said...

Vigilante,

I don't know. I do know that a Representative of the US was shot and that means to me that I was shot at. She just happened to be in the way. This bastard must be punished.

People will make political hay about this. Doing so is disgusting behaviour more suited to terrorists than us. A nine year old is dead because of this.

T_Rav said...

Apparently (I stress that word, because Jared Laughner is probably not the least common name in the world) this guy has a YouTube and a MySpace page (the latter appears to have been shut down). The video's pretty disturbing, as you might expect, and his favorite books range from "Adventures in Wonderland" and "The Old Man and the Sea" to "Mein Kampf" and "The Communist Manifesto." Guy's probably an anarchist, if he is anything at all, not that it matters. On the other hand, it also appears that a second suspect has definitely been arrested, and that a third man is wanted for questioning. All of which is to say, we still don't have a clue what's really going on here.

AndrewPrice said...

Bev, I agree completely.

Crazy will do what crazy will do, and it will find a cause to express itself -- be it a political ideology, religious belief, or other cause. We should not be holding whole ideologies responsible for their actions. Yet, so many in our culture do play the "gotcha" game of trying to tar their opponents with the actions of the crazies.

You saw this with the Tea Party for example. Were there nuts who attached themselves to the Tea Party? Sure. But the Tea Party did not encourage them or adopt their beliefs. So they should have been ignored or exposed for what they were -- unrepresentative nuts. Yet, groups like the MSM saw them as something they could exploit to make their opponents (the Tea Party) look bad by saying, "look what's in the Tea Party." This is wrong. It's dishonest and it's unAmerican to try to tar a whole group of people based on the actions of a couple people. Unfortunately, all sides do this.

Obama has issued a statement that I thought was appropriate. Pelosi issued one too, although I only heard part of it.

AndrewPrice said...

T_Rav, I knew you weren't trying to turn this into a political issue. I've read enough of your comments to know that you have a deep concern about human beings.

I'd heard that she was not dead. Let's hope she pulls through.

I'd also heard about the judge. There have been several federal judges who've been targets of bombings recently, but who knows?

AndrewPrice said...

Joel, The thing that terrorists and murderers never understand is that people don't react the way they think. People don't see them as heroes and suddenly say, "wow he's right." People see this for what it is, (as you say) an attack on all of us. It's sickening, it's disturbing, and our deepest instincts are to not let people like this get away with whatever it is they are after.

AndrewPrice said...

Tam, I didn't see it, but it doesn't surprise me he comes across as a nutjob. I do, however, wish they wouldn't read the statements these people put out -- they don't deserve to have their views broadcast.

(By the way, I read earlier that you were almost there, I'm glad you weren't!)

BevfromNYC said...

Andrew - I actually went to the link on Drudge. I wanted to see it before it was taken down by the Feds. It's incoherent and disjointed - the best way to describe it. That is all I will say. It did not name anyone as any target and wasn't a "suicide note". Anyway, Drudge linked to it, if anyone is interested if it's still available.

Tam said...

I agree Andrew. I don't like the publicity they seek getting validation by being rebroadcast. I was contemplating how to phrase my request to my French in-laws to watch my kid while I went out, then I just randomly lost my motivation. I'm so glad I preferred to sit on my couch with the cat on my lap. In case anyone wants to know, the buzz of helicopters is pretty consistent here. The safeway is about 2 miles away from my house.

AndrewPrice said...

T_Rav, There is one thing I will definitely say about the politics of this, unfortunately there are a group of people who drift to the fringes over time. And I don't mean people who simply have "stronger" principles than others, I mean people who drift into a fantasy world of conspiracies and grievances. They are often drawn to causes like racist groups, cult-like groups, or apocalyptic causes. They see the whole world as corrupt and evil and as the reason they are unhappy.

Unfortunately, a lot of people feed that either by spinning more conspiracy theories or by trying to force them to think differently rather than convincing them to think differently, i.e. the difference between showing them the facts and just telling them that they are not permitted to have the opinions they've developed -- which only strengthens their view that they are right.

This breeds a hatred and resentment that makes these people prime candidates for becoming violent. From there, it doesn't take much for them to become Columbine shooters or Manson family members.

I don't know that this guy falls into that, but whether he does or not, I think we as a society need to be more careful about giving such a free reign to all the conspiracy theories that we do.

Look at the conspiracies the left was spinning when Bush was in power and the conspiracies the right was spinning when Obama took over. All of that takes a toll on people who are already susceptible to that kind of thinking.

AndrewPrice said...

Tam, All I can say is that sometimes the universe looks out for us, and I'm glad you didn't go! :-)

AndrewPrice said...

Bev and T-Rav, I just checked out his page. It's gibberish. This guy is nuts. He's got some weird unspecific complaints about the people in power and he has disdain for everyone who can't see the world the way he does (he calls them "illiterate"). That's pretty standard for the unstable. And, sadly, he seems to think he's about to change the world.

T_Rav said...

Andrew, the guy's lunacy is pretty clear to me. He doesn't have a definable political agenda, it's just ranting against everything and everyone he thinks is unfair. His talk about "fiat currency" is barely coherent. Honestly, you don't really need to click on the YouTube site to know this guy is off his rocker. Anyone so deranged as to shoot a judge and a Congresswoman has already demonstrated to the rest of the world how twisted he is.

I think Chesterton once said that the best way to deal with a conspiracy theorist is not to reason them out of their position--you can't win at that--but to simply ask, "Who cares? Try to think about something else for a few minutes, stop and smell the roses, anything." If you can convince them that there's more out there then their paranoid delusions, that's half the battle.

Vigilante said...

Political ideologies are not the issue. The issue is whether firearms should be carried around town and not kept at home. The shooter was not sane; neither are Arizona's laws which permit fire arms at political rallies.

AndrewPrice said...

T_Rav, I think that's very insightful. I actually think the key to beating a conspiracy theory is a mixture of disdain/condescension and humor.

The thing about conspiracies is that these people think they know something no one else does, and that makes them special and powerful. That's what they get out of believing in it and that's where you need to hit them.

If you try to argue with them straight up, they have a built in defense mechanism that keeps you from reaching them because they will assume you have been blinded by lies. So you are a lesser being than they are, you don't have their vision, and anything you say is a lie.

Trying to force them to conform (as is often the response of those in authority through things like speech codes) will only make their beliefs stronger because you become an arm of the system. They will assume that the system has now discovered them (making them all the more important) and they will see this as their moment. . . a battle of wills that confirms their insight.

That leaves you with only one good way to fight., and that's to take away the benefit they get from the conspiracy theory -- and that is the sense of superiority. The best way to take that away is to humiliate them for believing in the theory. That requires you to poke holes in everything they say, and to do so with disdain and laughter. Basically, you are laughing at them for being idiots, which runs exactly counter to what they crave.

That's where I think Chesterton is correct -- by essentially mocking them, you rob them of the benefits they get from being crazy, and they find that they need to move on to find the affirmation they crave.

AndrewPrice said...

Vigilante, You are talking about ideology because you're talking about taking a stand on an issue with two clearly established sides that do battle in the political realm. To say that this is not an ideological issue is the same as the gun control people saying, "this isn't a matter of politics, it's a matter of common sense -- if we banned guns, there would be no gun crime." That's a political position.

Take a look at Politico, which is already trying to politicize this. They are making a big deal of this guy being "anti-government" which they imply makes him a right-winger when he's clearly a left-leaner, and they are making a big deal of him being seen "with a gun" as if the gun caused him to commit the crime. That's exploitation of a tragedy for the purposes of pushing a political agenda, and it's shameful

That's what we're objecting to.

Trust me, you don't need to use this event to make your case about concealed weapons, and pushing it now -- before the emotion has dissipated -- will only turn people off.

USS Ben USN (Ret) said...

Excellent post, Andrew, and I concur wholeheartedly.
It's pathetic that some folks (such as Vigilante) choose to politicize tragedies like this rather than call it what it is: the evil actions of a psychopath.

Incidently, Vigilante supports Julian Assange and follows an anti-semetic blog. So it's no surprise Vigilante is attempting to score political points.

Vigilante: I know it's probably pointless to say this, but why not at least try to think of the victims instead of using this act of evil in an attempt to further your political agenda?

You know, show a little class.

AndrewPrice said...

USS Ben, Thanks! I actually didn't follow the link to Vigilante's blog, so I didn't see what he had written or who he supports. I usually would, but today's been one of those days. Thanks for pointing that out.

Leaving Vigilante aside, I ran a Google search and guess what: dozens of blogs and articles already arguing for gun control. So typical. There is no tragedy people won't exploit. You can almost sense the glee as they're happy they've found something they can use to repeat their arguments all over again. It's truly shameful.

T_Rav said...

I haven't read any of these, because they would probably cause my ears to begin smoking, but from what I hear from others, the comment threads on Amazon, Yahoo, and others are already filled with lefties blaming Beck, Palin, and others for the shooting. And Paul Krugman has apparently put up something on the NY Times website implying that this was a right-wing assassination plot.

This truly sickens me. The bodies of the dead aren't even cold yet and the Left is already forming its talking points. I don't know what else to say about it.

Joel Farnham said...

This will die down as soon as it gets out that the guy is a left-wing nutcase. Right now, the left is doing it's best to paint all conservatives, tea partiers, and Sarah Palin as the cause of this.

The closest this guy gets to right-wing moonbattery is his love of the gold standard.

AndrewPrice said...

Joel and T_Rav,

I honestly think the left views people as props. They talk about respect for human life and dignity, but they don’t believe it. They see people (and particularly tragedies) as tools to be used to get an agenda in place.

I think it permeates their ideology and I think experience has shown that they have no respect for human life. That's why it's no surprise that leftists always turn to murder when they can't get what they want -- be it as "revolutionaries," or as tyrants getting rid of the people who stand in their way, or as governments imposing euthanasia to keep costs down to keep their system running.

This is what happens when you divide the world into those you like -- who deserve the protection of law, and those you don't -- who can be trampled for the good of society. When you think like that, it doesn't take much to see deaths, tragedies and crises as opportunities to be exploited.

Thus, I'm not surprised that these people would rush out to attack their enemies -- with no idea what they are talking about. And when they are proven wrong, they will just ignore the facts and move on because they don't actually care except to the extent they can convince others to follow them.

BevfromNYC said...

I can tell you it is a feeding frenzy on HuffPo. It's funny how they are ALL for fear-mongering and advocating censorship now. And of course, many are calling for Palin's head because Rep. Gifford was on some Palin target list.

AndrewPrice said...

Bev, I'm not at all surprised. Let me guess, our leftist friends are probably saying a lot of this:

"It's the rhetoric of hate that these fascists are using that caused this and we need to strangle these subhuman creatures in their sleep."

That seems to be the talking points they're using -- "rhetoric of hate".... followed by actual rhetoric of hate.

LawHawkRFD said...

The one place I expect controlled calm, facts and assurance is law enforcement. That did not come from the Sheriff of Pima County. His public statement was a strange mix of discussion of the crime and a near-hysterical exposition on "the climate of hate" and "dangerous rhetoric." And he couldn't leave it alone. He should stick to his law enforcement role and leave analysis and opinion to the politicians and pundits. He particularly proclaimed that "the angry rhetoric we experience today may not be the direct cause of violence, but it encourages mentally unbalanced people to act." That had no place at a press conference designed to assure the public that law enforcement is doing everything possible to get to the bottom of the actual crime. His job is to enforce the law and protect the public, not to give expositions on the First Amendment and psychology

BevfromNYC said...

"Palin, Beck, O'Reilly, Savagea should be tried for sedition" was the last I read. But "rhetoric of hate" about covers it. I also find it interesting at how quickly the Left is willing to give up all their civil rights because of this. They want to shut down ALL "hate speech". They do not get that they are also culpable. It never ends, does it?

Apparently, the Tucson Sheriff who was giving the briefing, let loose on the same "rhetoric of hate" by the right. He also had friends killed and frankly, should never have been allowed to head the briefing.

The kid was some loner who lived with his parents. It just is so sad.

Tennessee Jed said...

such a terrible horrible thing. My heart goes out to the victims and their families. Shooter appears to be a loner nutjob, I suppose. As I have wandered around the internet today, so many people are getting political on both sides. Disappointing, really. Interestingly, my first thought in a post 9/11 world was, is this an Al Queda offensive? It's all just so sad.

Vigilante said...

Andrew is not reading carefully. In my comment of January 8, 2011 6:02 PM
I clearly said the problem was guns in the streets. That is not a 'political' statement. That is a policy statement.

AndrewPrice said...

Lawhawk and Bev, I only just saw the video on the internet. You're right, this guy should not have been running this investigation. No one with a personal interest should ever run a police investigation.

AndrewPrice said...

Vigilante, Oh, I get it, you're on the gun control side. Then I ask, are you serious? Is your argument seriously that the first political killing in 30 years somehow justifies banning guns?

That's cartoon logic at best.

Why not ban cars? Cars killed more people today alone than guns have killed politicians in the last 100 years. Did you know that people have used knives, spoons, saws, baseball bats, clubs, sticks, nails, and electricity to kill people? Let's ban those too.

Think before you believe next time.

AndrewPrice said...

FYI, Politico has collected some quotes from people who knew this guy. Here's what one classmate said:

One woman who said she went to high school with him, and was his friend and bandmate, Caitie Parker, recalled him as "left wing, quite liberal. & oddly obsessed with the 2012 prophecy."

"[H]e was a pot head & into rock like Hendrix,The Doors, Anti-Flag," she wrote. She hadn't seen him, though, since 2007, and he'd become "reclusive."

Loughner "met Giffords once before in '07, asked her a question & he told me she was 'stupid & unintelligent."

Vigilante said...

FIRST POLITICAL KILLING IN 30 YEARS?
* The most recent was in 1989 when Alabama Judge Robert Smith Vance of the U.S. 11th Circuit Court of Appeals was killed by a mail bomb, traced to a man convicted in racially motivated attacks.
* March 10, 1993: Dr. David Gunn of Pensacola, Florida was fatally shot during a protest. He had been the subject of wanted-style posters distributed by Operation Rescue in the summer of 1992. Michael F. Griffin was found guilty of Dr. Gunn's murder and was sentenced to life in prison.
* July 29, 1994: Dr. John Britton and James Barrett, a clinic escort, were both shot to death outside another facility in Pensacola. Rev. Paul Jennings Hill was charged with the killings. Hill received a death sentence and was executed on September 3, 2003.
* December 30, 1994: Two receptionists, Shannon Lowney and Lee Ann Nichols, were killed in two clinic attacks in Brookline, Massachusetts. John Salvi was arrested and confessed to the killings. He died in prison and guards found his body under his bed with a plastic garbage bag tied around his head. Salvi had also confessed to a non-lethal attack in Norfolk, Virginia days before the Brookline killings.
* January 29, 1998: Robert Sanderson, an off-duty police officer who worked as a security guard at an abortion clinic in Birmingham, Alabama, was killed when his workplace was bombed. Eric Robert Rudolph, who was also responsible for the 1996 Centennial Olympic Park bombing, was charged with the crime and received two life sentences as a result.
* October 23, 1998: Dr. Barnett Slepian was shot to death at his home in Amherst, New York. His was the last in a series of similar shootings against providers in Canada and northern New York state which were all likely committed by James Kopp. Kopp was convicted of Dr. Slepian's murder after finally being apprehended in France in 2001.
* May 31, 2009: Dr. George Tiller was shot and killed by Scott Roeder as he served as an usher at his church in Wichita, Kansas.

patti said...

i had a back and forth on facebook with radical lefties calling for palin/"teabaggers"/conservative's heads...all after less than an hour after the shooting. i implored everyone to take a moment and get the facts before pointing at anyone OTHER than the person for pulling the trigger. it was no use. the vitriol was breathtaking. the hatred spewed. it was such a sad day to start with, to see that these people couldn't hold back in the face of tragedy saddened me further.

my prayers go with the families. that is all i am capable of today...

AndrewPrice said...

Patti, The left are creatures of hate. They'll spew for the next few days, spin more conspiracy theories, remake the universe in their minds, and then go on to hating their next enemy.

I'm pretty much done talking to them because I don't care what they have to say. They are liars and hypocrites and there's no point in giving any credence to anything people like that say.

AndrewPrice said...

Vigilante, I love it when idiots like you try to use logic.

Lets start with this: you've just proven how little danger guns play to society by naming a total of what 9 killings in the past 30 years? Baby cribs kill more than that every year, hence, you have made my point. Thank you.

Secondly, let me point out that while you count political deaths of your allies in the tens, I can point out the HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS your side has killed and continues to kill around the world. You and your kind are murderous assholes.

Now go away.

Vigilante said...

My "side"?

HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS your side has killed and continues to kill around the world"

Can you name ten of them?

StanH said...

God bless the all the victims of today’s tragedy. This guy was a wacko of the first magnitude, and should fry, his politics be damned. There was no honor in his actions, simply demented cowardice, a piece of slim looking for attention, in an otherwise wasted life. And though he is 22 or 23, he’s still living at home, were the hell is mommy and daddy, and how can they not know that they are breeding a wacko in the basement, this dipshit was heavily armed. Well hopefully his fifteen minutes of fame are up…sheesh!

AndrewPrice said...

Yes, your side -- the side of antisemitism and totalitarianism, the side of the government dominating its people and imposing the will of a self-identified elite on the public.

So let me guess, all those murders committed by leftists the world over, from the hundreds of millions killed in the Cultural Revolution to the Russian purges to the Vietnamese death camps to the FARC murders in South America to Cambodia to German terrorists like the Baader-Meinhof gang to ELF to your friends the 1960s radicals, etc. etc. etc. . . . all myths right?

AndrewPrice said...

Stan, From what I've seen, there were a lot of warning signs but they were ignored by many people -- teachers, parents, friends.

Let's hope he gets the justice he's earned and that he gets it without fame or reward.

Vigilante said...

Just because I want you to keep your frickin' guns in your homes and not on our streets, I get blamed for:


Cultural Revolution to the Russian purges to the Vietnamese death camps to the FARC murders in South America to Cambodia to German terrorists like the Baader-Meinhof gang to ELF to your friends the 1960s radicals...

That's a howler, Andy. Not to say a bit of a reach...

AndrewPrice said...

Ok Vigilante, Then what are your politics? Enlighten us.

T_Rav said...

Andrew, you think this twerp can be banned from the site? Obviously, you and LawHawk welcome dissent, as you should, but when people come on here for no other purpose than bomb-throwing, seems to me that crosses a line.

And I absolutely agree with what you had to say last night, about the Left viewing people as props rather than people. Brings to mind Immanuel Kant's dictum: People should always be treated as ends in themselves, never as means to an end.

AndrewPrice said...

T_Rav, We don't ban anyone unless they are spam or they get abusive, and he hasn't gotten abusive. So he's free to express his views, and if he wants to explain what he believes and debate the right and wrong of it, I'm more than happy to listen and/or debate.

AndrewPrice said...

T_Rav, On your other point, I think it would be good to remember that totalitarians have always viewed humans as expendable. They are tools for the state to achieve it's goals, that's it. And while the left occasionally talks about human dignity, etc. etc., that's not something they truly believe -- as evidenced by their repeated behavior.

And this is inherent in the left's way of thinking. Even when they aren't advocating dictatorship, they still think the same way. That's why they believe so strongly in things like euthanasia, because they see old, sick people as a burden on the state, rather than seeing them as individuals. You'll even hear leftists talk about outlawing private expenditures for these people because they consider the resources wasted.

So don't ever believe that they think human life is something to be protected at all cost, even as they use that line to justify whatever advance of government power they are after.

Ed said...

Sorry I'm late folks.

@Vigilante, I would be interested as well to know what your ideology is. As near as I can tell, you're opposed to gun ownership and strongly pro-abortion. That sounds like a pretty good down payment on being a leftist?

@Andrew, I agree with you about exploiting this, but clearly the left doesn't. The hate they are spewing on the internet honestly makes me sick, and it makes me think that they are beyond the pale.

Ed said...

@Bev, I occasionally check out Huffpo too and it really seems like a collection of the mentally ill over there. They should sell medication.

AndrewPrice said...

Ed, It is sickening.

As for Vigilante, I am being honest. I would very much like to know what he believes. I read his comments as coming from the left, but if I'm wrong, then I am wrong and would like to know.

Individualist said...

This guy is certainly unhinged and evil but I am not sure that he i "crazy" in the sense that he does not have the capacity for thought.

A military sergeant on Fox new who was there just out of sight and heard the shots said they were "even and practiced" and that he suspected this guy spent time on a shooting range which is why he was so effective in killing people. This takes a dedication and focus that precludes being complete "looney toones" to me.

This could very well be the act of someone who performed a political killing with the intent of causing as much chaos as possible. The Communist Manifesto and Mein Kampf books in his list could be red herrings.

Again I think the guy is not working from a full deck but he is more like Heath Ledger's Joker to me.

AndrewPrice said...

Individualist, Let me clarify, I don't think the guy is "crazy" in the sense of being so out of touch with reality that he doesn't know what he was doing. He knew exactly what he was doing and why. But I do think he is "crazy" in the sense that his beliefs have no basis in reality. I think he's clearly paranoid, based on his claims that the government is using brain washing to stop him from dreaming. I also suspect that he's got self-aggrandizement issues because he thinks he's going to change the world through an assassination. From the sounds of it, he was deeply maladjusted and he also suffered from sexual dysfunction of some sort. All of that points to someone who is "highly unstable" (I would say crazy) but who is not so whacky that they don't understand the consequences of their actions.

Boris said...

I'm curious as to how people in this room think. It appears that folks here have to have a label on someone before his opinions can be fairly evaluated - not to mention - carefully read.

T_Rav said...

Boris, if you're referring to Vigilante, I don't know what you're talking about. He got political with it well before anyone else here did, and was debated without anyone throwing any labels around long after that. If anyone's guilty of losing their head and resorting to partisan arguments, it's him.

AndrewPrice said...

"Boris" apparently you don't know much about the internet, but the internet provides basic tracking functions which let us know when someone like "Vigilante" returns to our site and pretends to be someone called "Boris." Sorry buddy, but you've been caught.

And the fact that you would even try this tells me that I was right about you the first time.

Now go away and exploit this tragedy somewhere else.

Individualist said...

Boris

Funny you should mention that because that describes me with a slight modification. I have to have an opinion on someone before his label can be fairly evaluated -not to mention - carefully read.

It's a subtle difference but we all have our crosses to bear then don't we.

Individualist said...

Andrew

I gues for me the thing is that we tend to want to use insanity as an excuse for these actions perhaps so that we can deny the evil in it. There are plenty of paranoid schizos I am sure who don't intend to harm people.

This guy new she was a congresswoman and planned this. The Utube stuff could be simply orchestrated crap. I am more inclined to think that this guy did this out of hatred and his psychology whatever it is will be an excuse. I don't care if he is crazy, it is the darkness in his heart that bothers me.. but who knows you may be right.

AndrewPrice said...

Individualist, Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that he didn't know what he was doing nor am I excusing what he did. He knew what he was doing was murder and that is was wrong. And for that he needs to die.

Moreover, whether his views are crazy or not, he is an evil little monster. I don't excuse someone for mental illness unless it's the kind of illness that literally makes it impossible for them to grasp what they are doing. And his form of crazy is not that. His form of crazy is that he's spun a political worldview that is starkly inconsistent with reality, BUT he is still capable of understanding what he is doing, the consequences of his actions, and making decisions about right and wrong. So I cannot excuse his evil as mental illness because he set out to do what he knew to be very wrong -- he just justified it to himself.

Boris said...

Andrew, Vigilante and I share a computer. Twerp.

AndrewPrice said...

And half a brain.

Ed said...

Whoops, the leftist is caught. Waaaah! It wasn't me, it was Boris my invisible roommate! Honest! LOL!

Post a Comment